Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

God’s condemnation is quite severe. Hell and death, if you are a literalist believer.

Meanwhile, scriptures say that the penalty for sin is closer to what we generally view as justice. That justice being an eye for an eye. This means that the penalty is close to the severity of the sin. If I kill, I earn death. If I steal, I only forfeit my wealth. I do not earn death. This justice seems fair to me.

Since few of us ever kill, few of us should earn hell and death. Yet scriptures indicate that the vast majority of our souls end in hell and death, while only the few reach heaven.

Can god be just if he exceeds the good justice standard that the bible, god’s WORD, claims is just?

There is no doubt that we are all sinners. Be that condition, imposed by god or nature, is forced upon us at birth.

If you think you have been condemned to hell and death and need a savior, can you tell us what sin of yours earned you hell and death?

Thanks.

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DL
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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Greatest I am wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:55 pmSince few of us ever kill...
Kill what... are you saying that only humans are alive?
Greatest I am wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:55 pmIf I kill, I earn death. If I steal, I only forfeit my wealth. I do not earn death. This justice seems fair to me.
Do you think that stealing never causes death?
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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cornivore wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:38 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:55 pmSince few of us ever kill...
Kill what... are you saying that only humans are alive?

Commandments are for human to human interaction.

Have you killed a human?



Do you think nor killing is always the best choice?

Answer my initial questions and I will reciprocate as is the best way to communicate and debate.

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DL

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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I mean, justice is kind of whatever God deems just. In the end, getting into heaven or being damned to hell is not merit-based. One cannot do "enough good" to outweigh any "bad" that they've committed and salvation comes only through faith; it is God's grace bestowed by Jesus.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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So I guess what I'm trying to say is that since only God is "good" Biblically speaking ("No one is good – except God alone" (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19)), of course, He must also be just.
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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Greatest I am wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:20 pm Commandments are for human to human interaction...

Answer my initial questions and I will reciprocate as is the best way to communicate and debate.
It's a good question (and I presume the other questions relate to the first), but I'm not looking to debate your philosophy, just wondering what your philosophy is here (on a vegan forum after all). "Did god really condemn mankind?" Why are you asking me... merely for the sake of debate?

If not, I'd like to know if the commandments which are for human to human interaction say that the act of a human being killing a non-human being cannot cause the death of another human (including the human being who killed the non-human being, especially as it relates to killing for sport or with extreme prejudice and in disregard of potential consequences on a grand scale).

Thanks, and by the way, I'm considering this from a perspective of Jain philosophy. Not to debate that either (or in particular), just to say that perhaps I'd have a broader perspective on interpreting your question than the context you've put it in. But I'm not sure if it's open to interpretation, as far as how the commandments are worded (or not worded... yeah maybe that could have been too much to write in stone). It isn't that I've never read such information, but haven't memorized it verbatim, because maybe it left me with more questions than answers. So that's all I have for you. Except to say that there may be more to consider than the wording of the commandments in order to answer philosophical questions based on them.

Personally, though, as a fundamental question of having just one word to consider (or parrot amongst myself, as a mantra), out of all of the words in the world, that would be the meaning of "balance" (not the meaning of "god"). Hypothetically, in other words, if I could give you (humankind) one commandment, it would be to find out what balance really means.

Well, that's essentially my philosophy on this philosophical vegan forum, I'm not really here to debate religion. ;) Although, the context of my discussion in this topic has to do with the balance between existence and spirituality. This could be what all religions or other human pursuits have in common, whether it's on anyone's mind at the time (not every question is fundamental, yet perhaps the humanity of it all boils down to a fundamental answer, which methinks would be in order to determine what balance really means in any context).

Yes, I can talk about it in any context, because I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about (except, of course, the words I'm using or trying to interpret).

Did god really condemn mankind... does this not sound like an unbalanced question? Just saying, I'm not really sure what the premise of it was, otherwise, because your other questions and discussion of those didn't seem to balance out that concept, philosophically (at least in my mind). That was the premise of my questions. Nevertheless, I guess that since you capitalized the word WORD, then maybe you'd like to know if the word "god" is condenmnable in itself. O', I don't think so, after all, it's one step away from to being "good". Now doesn't that sound balanced... good god! "Did good really condemn mankind?" What a silly question. ;) Not because it sounds balanced, since that could be like asking if good really means bad (or if good condemned man to be kind, if you like). Semantically, anything's possible, except perhaps a balanced discussion in so many words (I'd say it depends on what you'd like to think, when words can have so many meanings). Well, if whatever I just tried to say didn't make any sense, I'd say words really confused mankind (or vice versa).

Anyway, I haven't harped on mankind enough. So whether mankind has been condemned is obviously yet to be determined, but maybe nobody could answer that question after it happened (hypothetically, of course). I think mankind generally agrees that they could condemn themselves at least (by some kind of man made disaster, of which there are many scenarios for that, not only religious). I haven't heard the one about mankind balancing themselves into oblivion though (unless it really results in an imbalance). So that's what I was getting at, not that mankind couldn't possibly balance religious concepts (the balance of which isn't typically thought to cause condemnation, it's the imbalance of extremism based on religious misinterpretations causing another one of those scenarios). People will fight over anything, at times, like the balance of power (all the time). Perhaps the concept of god is another attempt at mankind balancing man kind. Sounds good, but does thinking about a 'balance of power' throw the word balance out of balance, if all you think about is power to do with balance, like how thinking about a god having only to do with condemnation would? I suppose it could (but it's just a thought imbalance).

Well, harping on balance isn't very balanced either, although I think it's a good start (compared to harping on the power of condemnation). I'm not really concerned about condemnation or power though, it may be disturbing in one way or another (or just questionable because it's simply another kind of imbalance), but then again so is too much of a good thing (except for balance, as far as I can tell). Anyway, from a Jain perspective, there is no balance of power, nor good vs evil, only non-violence to balance in the midst of one's spiritual existence. I don't know if that would balance out for me, in effect (I don't even know any Jains, only of them philosophically), but I prefer the thought of balance working that way (like a balance of peace—that's what I'd give to humanity if it were up to me—who says that anyway). Well, usually I'm just trying to balance out some silly situation, regardless of whether I'm thinking about it in terms of balance. So it ends up being a silly question most of the time, like what I intended to write in the first place, nothing too silly (it's just a wonder if everyone's on the same page there with balance as virtue, regardless of the topic, even if it's in the back of their minds). I think it could be a profound question, from infinite perspectives (whether or not I'd think of everything, beyond what I could read of everyone else's thoughts, or actually it could become one thought I suppose, if it's merely a personal question). That's about the only question I'm pondering in this discussion, because I wouldn't presume to know who else I'm talking to (and I forgive you for reading this, if it amounts to nonsense, because I wasn't trying to be the moral of the story, just make sense of it). I'm not going to remember most of these words, you know. ;)

What else should I harp on? Honestly, I have a collection of harp music, yet I was not compelled to respond to your questions as they were worded to begin with. Well, I tend to reword my own questions, so that's not saying much. I was just wondering if there were holes in holy topics on purpose (and humoring other thoughts on the matter, either way). Not that what I wrote could be so humorous, when it's too long for a punchline. I'm not really joking about philosophy or theology (except I didn't study that in particular). Maybe it's off topic for me to discuss this one, if it goes beyond the scope of your questions. Perhaps the questions are beyond the scope of my discussion too. But it's really your discussion, and I found it interesting on some level (along with the other responses — funny though, I didn't really read them carefully at first, and I ended up talking about the same words, which were emphasized, in there somewhere). I think spirituality is supposed to be more interesting than semantics though, so I'll have to try that one word discussion next time... maybe its universal like that (get it... uni versal)? One verse is fine too, whatever balance may be. You know, it's a convention, the word of god, the universe, many things, one word (from all words, for balance, I guess). It's a convention, like condemnation, which can be balanced too (you just don't fall for it—holiness, ha). ;)

Kidding aside, I generally like the religious conventions, and don't think of them in terms of condemnation, it's more like an aspiration to me. I mean I hope it works out for any of those who aspire that way. Beyond that I'd just like everything to balance out somehow (yet most everything's beyond me, yes well maybe that simplifies the matter)... you know, there's no point in describing that at length, like one commandment. I just wonder if people could ever follow one, universally... it's an aspiration at least (or a whole other religion, supposedly the oldest one—well, I guess they had a point in describing that at length then). It could be a long story, all things considered, and for the sake of having as little to do with them as possible. Oh well, it still sounds like I'm kidding...
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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VeggieTales wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:58 pm I mean, justice is kind of whatever God deems just. In the end, getting into heaven or being damned to hell is not merit-based. One cannot do "enough good" to outweigh any "bad" that they've committed and salvation comes only through faith; it is God's grace bestowed by Jesus.
Hogwash and immoral garbage.

What kind of uneducated believer are you?

You seem to think, going against your own WORD, that you or I decide to believe or not.

Here is some education on your own ideology, that you seem not to know.

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ

Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then the is is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.


What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Regards
DL
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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VeggieTales wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:56 pm So I guess what I'm trying to say is that since only God is "good" Biblically speaking ("No one is good – except God alone" (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19)), of course, He must also be just.
More immoral garbage.

Biblically speaking, Yahweh is a genocidal son murdering prick.

Do you think such is a good source of justice or more of injustice?

If you like Yahweh's justice, who is second best in your view? Hitler or Stalin? They had the same justice standards.

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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

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cornivore wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:20 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:20 pm Commandments are for human to human interaction...

Answer my initial questions and I will reciprocate as is the best way to communicate and debate.
It's a good question (and I presume the other questions relate to the first), but I'm not looking to debate your philosophy, just wondering what your philosophy is here (on a vegan forum after all). "Did god really condemn mankind?" Why are you asking me... merely for the sake of debate?

If not, I'd like to know if the commandments which are for human to human interaction say that the act of a human being killing a non-human being cannot cause the death of another human (including the human being who killed the non-human being, especially as it relates to killing for sport or with extreme prejudice and in disregard of potential consequences on a grand scale).

Thanks, and by the way, I'm considering this from a perspective of Jain philosophy. Not to debate that either (or in particular), just to say that perhaps I'd have a broader perspective on interpreting your question than the context you've put it in. But I'm not sure if it's open to interpretation, as far as how the commandments are worded (or not worded... yeah maybe that could have been too much to write in stone). It isn't that I've never read such information, but haven't memorized it verbatim, because maybe it left me with more questions than answers. So that's all I have for you. Except to say that there may be more to consider than the wording of the commandments in order to answer philosophical questions based on them.

Personally, though, as a fundamental question of having just one word to consider (or parrot amongst myself, as a mantra), out of all of the words in the world, that would be the meaning of "balance" (not the meaning of "god"). Hypothetically, in other words, if I could give you (humankind) one commandment, it would be to find out what balance really means.

Well, that's essentially my philosophy on this philosophical vegan forum, I'm not really here to debate religion. ;) Although, the context of my discussion in this topic has to do with the balance between existence and spirituality. This could be what all religions or other human pursuits have in common, whether it's on anyone's mind at the time (not every question is fundamental, yet perhaps the humanity of it all boils down to a fundamental answer, which methinks would be in order to determine what balance really means in any context).

Yes, I can talk about it in any context, because I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about (except, of course, the words I'm using or trying to interpret).

Did god really condemn mankind... does this not sound like an unbalanced question? Just saying, I'm not really sure what the premise of it was, otherwise, because your other questions and discussion of those didn't seem to balance out that concept, philosophically (at least in my mind). That was the premise of my questions. Nevertheless, I guess that since you capitalized the word WORD, then maybe you'd like to know if the word "god" is condenmnable in itself. O', I don't think so, after all, it's one step away from to being "good". Now doesn't that sound balanced... good god! "Did good really condemn mankind?" What a silly question. ;) Not because it sounds balanced, since that could be like asking if good really means bad (or if good condemned man to be kind, if you like). Semantically, anything's possible, except perhaps a balanced discussion in so many words (I'd say it depends on what you'd like to think, when words can have so many meanings). Well, if whatever I just tried to say didn't make any sense, I'd say words really confused mankind (or vice versa).

Anyway, I haven't harped on mankind enough. So whether mankind has been condemned is obviously yet to be determined, but maybe nobody could answer that question after it happened (hypothetically, of course). I think mankind generally agrees that they could condemn themselves at least (by some kind of man made disaster, of which there are many scenarios for that, not only religious). I haven't heard the one about mankind balancing themselves into oblivion though (unless it really results in an imbalance). So that's what I was getting at, not that mankind couldn't possibly balance religious concepts (the balance of which isn't typically thought to cause condemnation, it's the imbalance of extremism based on religious misinterpretations causing another one of those scenarios). People will fight over anything, at times, like the balance of power (all the time). Perhaps the concept of god is another attempt at mankind balancing man kind. Sounds good, but does thinking about a 'balance of power' throw the word balance out of balance, if all you think about is power to do with balance, like how thinking about a god having only to do with condemnation would? I suppose it could (but it's just a thought imbalance).

Well, harping on balance isn't very balanced either, although I think it's a good start (compared to harping on the power of condemnation). I'm not really concerned about condemnation or power though, it may be disturbing in one way or another (or just questionable because it's simply another kind of imbalance), but then again so is too much of a good thing (except for balance, as far as I can tell). Anyway, from a Jain perspective, there is no balance of power, nor good vs evil, only non-violence to balance in the midst of one's spiritual existence. I don't know if that would balance out for me, in effect (I don't even know any Jains, only of them philosophically), but I prefer the thought of balance working that way (like a balance of peace—that's what I'd give to humanity if it were up to me—who says that anyway). Well, usually I'm just trying to balance out some silly situation, regardless of whether I'm thinking about it in terms of balance. So it ends up being a silly question most of the time, like what I intended to write in the first place, nothing too silly (it's just a wonder if everyone's on the same page there with balance as virtue, regardless of the topic, even if it's in the back of their minds). I think it could be a profound question, from infinite perspectives (whether or not I'd think of everything, beyond what I could read of everyone else's thoughts, or actually it could become one thought I suppose, if it's merely a personal question). That's about the only question I'm pondering in this discussion, because I wouldn't presume to know who else I'm talking to (and I forgive you for reading this, if it amounts to nonsense, because I wasn't trying to be the moral of the story, just make sense of it). I'm not going to remember most of these words, you know. ;)

What else should I harp on? Honestly, I have a collection of harp music, yet I was not compelled to respond to your questions as they were worded to begin with. Well, I tend to reword my own questions, so that's not saying much. I was just wondering if there were holes in holy topics on purpose (and humoring other thoughts on the matter, either way). Not that what I wrote could be so humorous, when it's too long for a punchline. I'm not really joking about philosophy or theology (except I didn't study that in particular). Maybe it's off topic for me to discuss this one, if it goes beyond the scope of your questions. Perhaps the questions are beyond the scope of my discussion too. But it's really your discussion, and I found it interesting on some level (along with the other responses — funny though, I didn't really read them carefully at first, and I ended up talking about the same words, which were emphasized, in there somewhere). I think spirituality is supposed to be more interesting than semantics though, so I'll have to try that one word discussion next time... maybe its universal like that (get it... uni versal)? One verse is fine too, whatever balance may be. You know, it's a convention, the word of god, the universe, many things, one word (from all words, for balance, I guess). It's a convention, like condemnation, which can be balanced too (you just don't fall for it—holiness, ha). ;)

Kidding aside, I generally like the religious conventions, and don't think of them in terms of condemnation, it's more like an aspiration to me. I mean I hope it works out for any of those who aspire that way. Beyond that I'd just like everything to balance out somehow (yet most everything's beyond me, yes well maybe that simplifies the matter)... you know, there's no point in describing that at length, like one commandment. I just wonder if people could ever follow one, universally... it's an aspiration at least (or a whole other religion, supposedly the oldest one—well, I guess they had a point in describing that at length then). It could be a long story, all things considered, and for the sake of having as little to do with them as possible. Oh well, it still sounds like I'm kidding...
A good reply. I will speak to a couple of things.

On killing and eating animals.

I am a Vegan because of the now immoral rearing of the animals we consume and not because I think killing and eating animals as un-natural.

Life has always grown from the death and decay of previous life. In fact, pleasure from us as the apex predator of the world may have helped evolution in the past. Now that predation is a hindrance and brings our own extinction closer. Perhaps too damned close.

You seem to want to imbalance god by making him good without evil.

The tree of knowledge of all things is dualistic yet you would take the Yin away from the Yang in god.

You forget that Yin and Yang are not in opposition. They compliment each other.

Regards
DL
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Re: Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Post by cornivore »

Greatest I am wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:08 pm You seem to want to imbalance god by making him good without evil.
Funny, I'd wouldn't say that I'd like to imbalance anything, yet I wrote too much about it, so I think it's fair enough if that seemed unbalanced. To say the least I think balance would not condemn mankind, and to your point I think that mankind cannot balance good with evil (or non-violence with violence), just too much of a good thing with nothing (like a diet)...
Greatest I am wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:08 pm The tree of knowledge of all things is dualistic yet you would take the Yin away from the Yang in god.

You forget that Yin and Yang are not in opposition. They compliment each other.
Our knowledge of balance is still lacking. Is there even such a thing as a balanced diet? I don't know, but some are more balanced than others, as people don't need to supplement nutrition with pollution (or antinutrition), when equal parts of those could condemn mankind. For that matter I wouldn't say that evil compliments good either, just as pollution doesn't compliment purity. It may be a side-effect of a purification process, but I wouldn't call it complimentary, because maybe there's a better way to balance this for mankind, without creating such an imbalance in the process.
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