I would just like to vent on my inability to justify things

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maxeemindee
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I would just like to vent on my inability to justify things

Post by maxeemindee »

Hi everyone, I am currently attending high school and I have recently made the decision to become vegan, and I have continued this lifestyle for about three weeks so far. I feel very lucky to have supportive parents that will cook me vegan meals out of their own care for me and even buy me vitamin b-12 supplements. Although my parents support me, I feel a bit of a conflict in my mind knowing that after my careful discussions with my parents about the moral issues and bad effects of consuming and using animal products, they still continue to eat meat without batting an eyelash.

I also have this sort of issue at school when people discover that I am vegan, because I feel that when people give arguments such as "I like eating meat" or "you need protein from meat",I support my stance weakly when I have watched many of The Vegan Atheist's videos that contain very comprehensive and strong support for his arguments against meat eating. It just sucks because I have seen The Vegan Atheist's clearly supported arguments, but when I actually go out into the real world and converse with people I get all tongue-tied and cannot support my argument that well against even the stupidest of justifications for eating meat and using animal products. I hope I can learn more from The Vegan Atheist and support veganism more strongly using more clear justification like The Vegan Atheist in the future. :D
maxeemindee
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Re: I would just like to vent on my inability to justify thi

Post by maxeemindee »

I would also like to mention that I am taking a very rigorous course in high school that prevents me from making my own meals or from doing much of anything other than schoolwork or natural human processes without collapsing from exhaustion.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: I would just like to vent on my inability to justify thi

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Hi Max, welcome to the forum!

Congrats on going vegan. As to being able to argue with carnists in real-time... well, that takes practice.

Doing it on the internet will help, but you also have to get some face to face practice with serious debates.
Knowing the arguments is only part of it. Being able to call up the arguments in real-time and under stress, again is just part of it. Finally, being able to deliver those arguments by converting them into words in an adversarial conversation -- that completes the puzzle.
It's easier said than done, although I guess in this case the saying is the doing of it.

Any kind of argument will help prepare you for the third part, and to a large extent the second.
For example, arguing with theists will make you better at arguing with carnists, just because you have more experience with debate. Just get in as much debate, of any kind, whenever you can. You'll "level up" quickly.
maxeemindee
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Re: I would just like to vent on my inability to justify thi

Post by maxeemindee »

Also if The Vegan Atheist is reading this right now could you maybe make a resource that could teach people how to justify their vegan and atheist positions because that is something that I utterly suck at, and I often find myself at a loss for words when trying to justify myself.
maxeemindee
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Re: I would just like to vent on my inability to justify thi

Post by maxeemindee »

brimstoneSalad wrote:Hi Max, welcome to the forum!

Congrats on going vegan. As to being able to argue with carnists in real-time... well, that takes practice.

Doing it on the internet will help, but you also have to get some face to face practice with serious debates.
Knowing the arguments is only part of it. Being able to call up the arguments in real-time and under stress, again is just part of it. Finally, being able to deliver those arguments by converting them into words in an adversarial conversation -- that completes the puzzle.
It's easier said than done, although I guess in this case the saying is the doing of it.

Any kind of argument will help prepare you for the third part, and to a large extent the second.
For example, arguing with theists will make you better at arguing with carnists, just because you have more experience with debate. Just get in as much debate, of any kind, whenever you can. You'll "level up" quickly.
Thanks for the advice brimstone. I will make an effort to know the topics well and debate with people as much as I can in order to develop my debating skills. As for delivering the arguments by words in conversation... I will work on that too! :D
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Lightningman_42
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Re: I would just like to vent on my inability to justify thi

Post by Lightningman_42 »

maxeemindee wrote:I feel very lucky to have supportive parents that will cook me vegan meals out of their own care for me. Although my parents support me, I feel a bit of a conflict in my mind knowing that after my careful discussions with my parents about the moral issues and bad effects of consuming and using animal products, they still continue to eat meat without batting an eyelash.
Welcome to the forum, Maxeemindee! What you said above sounds like a perfect description of my parents, so I daresay that I know exactly how you feel. I have had many conversations with my parents since I first became vegan about why I'm doing it. By now they understand my reasons for being vegan almost perfectly, and for the most part they agree (they have moral concern for animals). While it's comforting to me to have my parents understand me so well, at the same time it also drives me mad. Why? Because they understand my reasons for being vegan, and agree for the most part, and yet continue to consume animal products without presenting any sort of moral justification. I think that they (both your parents and mine) realize that they can't defend it, and so now they're in denial. I'm still hoping that they'll overcome denial one day and become vegan too.

Anyways I'd recommend being patient with your parents and gently showing them how passionate you are about this issue. Perhaps you can make dinner for them at some point or bake something vegan for them. Perhaps if you live by example you can inspire them and others to realize that the vegan lifestyle is not only doable but enjoyable, and certainly worth considering.
maxeemindee wrote:I also have this sort of issue at school when people discover that I am vegan, because I feel that when people give arguments such as "I like eating meat" or "you need protein from meat",I support my stance weakly when I have watched many of The Vegan Atheist's videos that contain very comprehensive and strong support for his arguments against meat eating. It just sucks because I have seen The Vegan Atheist's clearly supported arguments, but when I actually go out into the real world and converse with people I get all tongue-tied and cannot support my argument that well against even the stupidest of justifications for eating meat and using animal products. I hope I can learn more from The Vegan Atheist and support veganism more strongly using more clear justification like The Vegan Atheist in the future. :D
After a relatively short time as a vegan, it quickly becomes apparent how profoundly silly, illogical, and irrelevant the excuses to consume animal products are. I would recommend that you watch Gary Yourofsky's two speeches below to better strengthen your defense of veganism (especially the 2014 "Excuses" speech):
-2010 Speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5hGQDLprA8 Q&A: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PR64HGJoyk
-2014 Speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHfVajDbyJk Q&A: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ujoa_3XS2Y

I'd also recommend reading Gary Francione's book Eat Like You Care: An Examination of the Morality of Eating Animals. Please note that Francione holds some beliefs that I disagree with, as well as a deontological basis of morality that I consider to be irrational (like TVA explained in his second video critiquing Matt Dillahunty). This particular book however is still a very good persuasive argument for ethical veganism and definitely worth a read.

Finally I'd like to say: becoming an effective advocate of veganism simply requires practice, confidence, and knowledge of the arguments for and against it. brimstoneSalad described it well: get more practice and you'll soon "level-up". If nonvegans mock you or trivialize the reasons to be vegan, stay calm and remind yourself that they have no substantial arguments to make. You will be the one pushing them around; not vice-versa.

I hope this helps.
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil but because of those who look on and do nothing."
-Albert Einstein
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Jebus
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Re: I would just like to vent on my inability to justify thi

Post by Jebus »

Welcome and congratulations on your early decision to turn vegan. It's also great that your parents are so understanding. What motivated you to make this decision?
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
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garrethdsouza
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Re: I would just like to vent on my inability to justify thi

Post by garrethdsouza »

Perhaps it would be useful to you to check out the documentaries:
1. Cowspiracy
2. Speciesism
3. Earthlings
The first two are very informative on the environmental and ethics angles, earthlings is abbatoir footage so that can address the suffering angle too.
I happened to find bite size vegans YouTube channel also very informative. You can check that out too, she addresses multiple such issues separately. :)
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― Brian Cox
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zeello
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Re: I would just like to vent on my inability to justify thi

Post by zeello »

To be honest I wouldn't if my mom offers me food made from animals, as I am in no position to reject my own mom. Family is sort of a moral gray area in my book. I see veganism as purely a consumer decision. Eating meat is okay, BUYING meat is what's immoral.

I could offer a load of argumrnts I made up in favor of veganism, but then this post would become a wall of text. For me the arguments are sound and obvious, hopefully over time you get more practice and won't feel as tongue tied.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: I would just like to vent on my inability to justify thi

Post by brimstoneSalad »

zeello wrote:To be honest I wouldn't if my mom offers me food made from animals, as I am in no position to reject my own mom. Family is sort of a moral gray area in my book. I see veganism as purely a consumer decision. Eating meat is okay, BUYING meat is what's immoral.
That's not entirely true. It's the causal link to animal suffering which is problematic, and in order to understand that link you have to understand economics very well, which most people do not at all.

Freeganism, if done correctly by somebody highly educated in economics, is morally equivalent to veganism.
But that doesn't just mean eating whatever meat is free for you -- that's just being a cheap carnist.

If your mother buys meat for you, and you eat it, then she'll buy meat for you again, and again. If you do not eat it once, it may be wasted once (more likely, it will go in the refrigerator -- a marvelous modern invention which defeats most bad freegan arguments -- and be eaten later by somebody else in lieu of other meat) but then thereafter your mother will stop buying meat for you.

The causal links, not just of your purchases, but any purchases on your behalf or that you caused, are the problem.

See my post here: http://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewto ... 8234#p8234
And I also recommend you read the entire thread, if you're interested in freeganism.
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