Hello to everyone

[camiloph1988]

Hello to everyone, I found about this website by watching a youtube video about "stupid comments from Christians in youtube", I think is interesting, and I decided to join.

I also thought that the proper thing to do was to introduce myself, as suggested in the webpage, so I'm Camilo.

I don't like to label myself, but if you want me to identify myself with one or some words, I would call myself a naturalist, or secular humanist.

I don't claim to know there's no god, as a creator and ruler of the universe, I just come to the conclusion that the existence of such a god is highly unlikely and unnecessary, based on the observation of the natural world and our universe.

I don't have any particular interest in "spread" atheism (if I may say so), or to point at Christianity, Islam or any other sort of religion. Although I must admit that I enjoy watching all sort videos in youtube, be it debates like Harris vs Craig, or funny content as "why do people laugh at creationist", but I watch them, primarily because I'm interested in knowing (even if is just superficially) the scientific and/or philosophic content of these points of view, especially from the secular side, because, from the other side, I'm not interested.

One thing I do want to spread and encourage is rational thinking, I don't want everyone to become a physicist, or a chemist or a mathematician, the world would be pretty much boring in that way, yet I want to encourage people to think rationally, have no authorities and question all ideas, for the regular people in their daily life.

So, I hope that in sites like this I could find good ideas to do so or to help someone to achieve the same or similar goals.

A little more about me, I'm just a simple civil engineer, there are lots of thing I don't know about the same amount of topics, but I'm always willing to learn.

I'm not American, well, actually I'm American but not from the U.S. I'm from Colombia.

And I guess that's it, I hope I can help to construct something somehow with you people.

My regards

Camilo

[Insert name here]

Hello and welcome to the forum. How did you become an atheist? What are your thoughts on veganism? What is it like being a civil engineer?

[Cirion Spellbinder]

Welcome Camilo!
Have you watched any of the other videos on TVA's YouTube channel? Did you find them interesting?
Do you consider fideism to be rational thought?

[camiloph1988]

Hello, I'll try to answer the questions.

Well, although I was raised in the Catholic cult, I never felt engaged with it, and my parents never forced me to. The first person that gave I book with serious criticism about the Catholic church was my father, I was a teenager, in that book and other books I found out about all atrocities Catholic church has performed, back then I couldn't make my mind to the fact that the people that it's intended to "deliver" god's message to other people were just monsters driven crazy by their thirst of power, and how they relentlessly attacked the pursuit of knowledge, since then I've been separated from common religion traditions you could find in my country, mostly Christians.

I must say that no every Christian is like that, in fact there are some that really help their communities.

In my mind I came to the conclusion that organized religions, as Christianity, are about control, control over people that give the people who manage the "credo" the power to rule, power they are not willing to lose even if they have to distort their "holy, divine inspired message".

Anyways, I was very comfortable with the idea that the idea that god could exist, if there is a cause for the beginning of the universe, why couldn't it be a sort of God?, I used to wonder, and then I constructed a case in my mind "even if such a God exist, it is highly improbable that such entity is the Christian God, or Allah, or Zaratustra, or whatever" I didn't see the logic link between the entity that triggered the universe, and the entity that supposedly gave a message to some illiterate people thousands of years ago, a message that's been re-given, distorted and reinterpreted over the years only causing confusion and disagreement.

So I started to live my life as I would call now a naturalist, I didn't ask things from God, I didn't look for comfort in God, I didn't make questions to God, instead I tried to do my best to understand rationally what was happening, trying to achieve things by myself and with the aid of people, looking for comfort in my family and friends, and making questions to myself and trying to find the answers in books and in the body of confirmed knowledge that mankind has been able to put together. But I didn't have clear any philosophical concept, I wasn't interested in that, I just lived my life my as there is no good, and life made a lot of more sense in that way; I gave purpose to my life in the pursuit of knowledge, learning new things is what I like the most, and I lost my fear of eternal damnation, I thought that the simplest way of keeping control over people is promising them eternal life, a good eternal life if you do what they want, and eternal punishment if you don't do what they want.

It is just until recently (2 years or so) that I became interested in forming a strong well-founded philosophical background for the way I live my life, why?, well, if you are open to hear all points of view it's always better to have your own firm, in the case you have to confront logic fallacy or that kind of things. And then I realized about a lot of terms and thoughts, and I adopted naturalism or secular humanism, as the way I live my life, in the case someone asks. Science it's always been an important part in my life, even if I'm not a scientist, I'm just a simple engineer.But my profession allows me to understand the scientific method and cherish it.

Nowadays I realized that I've lived my life almost the same way always, I've experienced changes, as any person, and certainly some things I used to think 10 years ago are now totally different, I've evolved, if you allow me to say that; but one thing has remain the same and I always come to the same conclusion, I don't know if there's no god, but the rational inquiry of the world and the universe makes such entity unlikely and unnecessary, so I live my life like that, and if such entity do exist, there is no reason to believe it is any of the man-made gods people worship.

Now I have to work in some other stuff, but I would be pleased in answering your other questions, if you are still interested.

But in a short way, I do eat meat, I consider it totally natural (in the natural world one animal eats other), but I do think there's is serious problem in the way humanity is obtaining and processing the food, it's not only a very cruel way, but a very inefficient way, I would say that we have to rethink the way we eat, for my part I've reduced my rations of meat, and I've changed them with other aliments.

I have to do more research about "fideism"; based on the little few I read, it seems that it is philosophy that allows the suspension of the critical thinking in order to maintain a religious belief. My first thought would be that, I have no problem with it, I don't care about people believe, nor I am interested inject my way of thinking in other persons, I would like to the spread rational thinking as a valid way of making decisions, but if at the end of the day you still want to pray to and worship a God, it's up to you and it's fine for me. I care about freedom of speech, secular estates and confirmed, scrutinized, widely accepted scientific bodies of knowledge to be taught as science.

My Regards

Camilo

[Cirion Spellbinder]

But in a short way, I do eat meat, I consider it totally natural (in the natural world one animal eats other)

If something is natural, that does not make it good. In the natural world, it is common for male ducks to rape female ducks. Based on this observation, would you therefore not consider rape immoral? This is called the "Appeal to Nature" and it is logically fallacious.
Sources:
http://www.science20.com/news_articles/ ... _human_sex
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature

but I do think there's is serious problem in the way humanity is obtaining and processing the food, it's not only a very cruel way, but a very inefficient way

How is factory farming inefficient? Do you have any sources I can read up on?

I would say that we have to rethink the way we eat, for my part I've reduced my rations of meat, and I've changed them with other aliments

This is certainly a step in the right direction. Are you aware of the negative health effects of animal products?

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.

Sources:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

[camiloph1988]

Hello, long time since I was here.

I see you "demolished" my comment on the diet argument, I'll try to make it more clear.

First, I was and I am right now, specking loosely, I don't have data or peer reviewed publications to back up what I said or I'm going to say; I'm speaking just from my intuition and from the small amount of information I can grasp from the general media.

When I was talking about "inefficiency" and "cruelty", I was referring to the meat production, it is my understanding from the little I know of the production chain in cattle and chicken farms; not that I know perfectly the chain, not that I know at all other procedures to produce food.

You identified as fallacious my argument of "natural process"; and I'll grant you that, but I never said it was good or moral, I said it was natural. In this point I have to say that I'm happy to live in a society where I don't have to hunt and kill or harvest my own food, in such scenario I would die quickly or I would have died a long time ago.

Now, I'll try to be as honest and clear as I can be. It's true I'm reducing my meat rations in my meals, but I'm not considering a vegetarian or vegan diet in the near or far future.

How do I justify it?... I don't... It is unjustifiable... for a person like me it would be possible to adopt a strictly vegetarian or vegan diet; I think yes; but I don't want to, I like to eat meat.

aren't I aware of the health problems that carries?... yes, I'm aware of them, I don't live my life in order to be as healthy as possible, I do all sort of unjustifiable things, I eat meat, I smoke, I drink alcohol.... and you could ask "why are you so stupid and irrational?".... and my response is: "I do those things because I like to, I'm perfectly aware of the consequences, I don't rationalize them, the things that make happy kill me, I know that, and I accept that"

Why do I say that?.... because I know that some people will identify my arguments as fallacious and inconsistent... and that's the point, those are not arguments, I'm not trying to justify myself.... I know I can't.

At this point you probably think that I'm full of crap and that I'm intellectually dishonest... full of crap maybe, however I'm telling my truth; and intellectually dishonest, I don't think so, I'm not denying reality, I know the consequences of what I do, I accept those consequences.

I'm sorry to disappoint you all (I guess), I hope you find my sincerity not completely disgusting.

My regards

Camilo

[inator]

Hey Camilo, glad to hear that you are taking steps to improve your eating behavior.

I don't think you are trying to be dishonest. If you are fully aware of the health problems associated with meat eating and have decided that you can live with that risk, I understand.
However I'm not convinced that you have really reached the point of total honesty (with yourself) and what leads me to believe this is what you said here:

I know the consequences of what I do, I accept those consequences.

Are you sure you understand the consequences? Because if you did, you would see that it's not just up to you to 'accept' them.
They don't only affect you, but also beings who can suffer similarily to you and who do not want to die, do not want to be tormented and have no way of defending themselves.
We are basically taking away their choice to not accept those consequences.

A rapist might also say: "I know the consequences of what I do, I accept those consequences."
I'm not making this comparison to offend you, but only to help you realize that simply liking something is not enough reason to do it, especially when it seriously harms others.

And the fact that 'most people do it' is also no good reason to conform. You can easily think of instances in history when people did horrendous things simply because it was socially acceptable, so they didn't even stop to think about the consequences of their actions. The argument in each of those instances (as with slavery, supremacism etc.) was that a certain state of affairs was "natural" or "normal".
Most of them weren't bad people, I can tell you that. There's a seeming banality to doing evil things when evil is part of the system.
But if we've evolved since those times, it's only because people who were honest enough with themselves decided it was time to make a change.

How has reducing your meat intake been for you, have you come across any difficulties specific to where you live or to your situation? If you need any support, feel free to ask us anything and we'll do our best to help.

[garrethdsouza]

If you have the time, check out earthlings, IMO it's the most important documentary to watch on this issue and perhaps the most important documentary of our times. Though I disagree with it on some matters.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PB_ZMiYy_OQ

Low to Moderate alcohol consumption is AFAIK not too bad on health. Smoking oon the other hand has major health consequences so maybe consider reading up on them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_ ... of_smoking
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking ... regulation

It is possible to quit, its been done and there are a lot of online resources available should you be open to it.

[inator]

If you have the time, check out earthlings, IMO it's the most important documentary to watch on this issue and perhaps the most important documentary of our times. Though I disagree with it on some matters.

Which part do you disagree with?

[garrethdsouza]

Which part do you disagree with?

On research, most of what they had shown was pseudoscientific and cherrypicked. Irrespective of the latter, i would still take a more nuanced approach on experiments rather than blanket anti animal experimentation. Somne of us have alternatives to animal products for our nutritional needs, that doesn't automatically mean we have them for all others and research is a good example.