Morality > Truth?

[EquALLity]

Eh this is something I've been asking myself. Do they care about morality, or just wealth and power? Or both? Or something else?
Because, in some sense, you have to consider the fact that they want to do good, even though realistically it's far from that.

It seems hard for me to imagine that people would risk their lives and leave everything they have to join a terrorist organization if they didn't think they were doing the right thing, and they just wanted wealth and power.

The living conditions in ISIS are really bad, from my understanding. I think it's just the leadership that has a lot of wealth and power.

I'm not saying ISIS terrorists aren't horrible people, but I believe they do care about what they perceive morality to be.

ISIS members are mostly trying to do good, they are just incredibly ignorant. Mostly tribes people who have never had access to good education. Islam is all they know, and they're trying to defend what they see as attacks on their homeland and way of life.

ISIS members are at least trying to be good people in taking up arms and risking their lives, they just fail at it due to ignorance (which, arguably, is no fault of their own because most of them don't even have access to education).

In contrast, The6thMessenger is fully informed/has ample access to information about the harm she does, is fully responsible for her actions, and chooses to do evil instead of good.

At least in terms of moral responsibility for harmful actions, she is the much worse person.

Well, if they questioned their dogmas they would come to the conclusion their beliefs are wrong.

Also, many from the west have traveled to the ME to fight for ISIS, and they grew up in an anti-ISIS society.

But maybe she does care about being good now. She didn't before, but she could've had a change of heart.

[EquALLity]

People who complain that they hate this world so much always have a way out. She should stop complaining.

If she exercised a modicum of effort to become a better human being, she could start caring about the suffering of others and stop being such a angsty miserable lump and do some good in the world.

I have little patience for useless complaining lumps of gluttony and self pity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_hedonism
That's all self serving hedonism will get you.

She needs to take control of her life, and start giving a shit about others if she wants to be worth anything in this world.

I agree that you pushed the envelope with this, especially here.

Everyone is aware that there's 'a way out' (AKA suicide). So why exactly are pointing it out?
It's almost like you're subtly encouraging it.

[brimstoneSalad]

Well, if they questioned their dogmas they would come to the conclusion their beliefs are wrong.

Do they have the tools, or even the cognitive ability to do that? This is not clear to me. They don't necessarily have access to people with different beliefs, or understand even in the way that Western Christians do that there are other perspectives.

These are primitive people. Barely a step above chimps on the cognitive ladder. I'm not saying this is genetic. Education makes a huge difference, not just to what we know, but how we are capable of thinking.

The Western education system is terrible, but shines relative to tribal Islamic education and indoctrination. For example, Afghanistan has a 38.2% literacy rate. If you can't read and have no access to books or the internet, then the only information you have is what people tell you, and if you will be killed for asking the wrong questions, you don't really have much of a choice.

Also, many from the west have traveled to the ME to fight for ISIS, and they grew up in an anti-ISIS society.

Those people largely chose the delusion over reality because it gratified their egos to be involved in some great imaginary war of the good Islam against the evil West.
They are far more culpable, since they had to work hard to delude themselves and break from social norms. Kind of like the Flat-Earth thing.
These people are closer to intentionally wicked (not unlike the pink one), but a rarer exception.

But maybe she does care about being good now. She didn't before, but she could've had a change of heart.

I asked her, she didn't answer clearly as far as I could tell, or brushed it off.

I agree that you pushed the envelope with this, especially here.

Everyone is aware that there's 'a way out' (AKA suicide). So why exactly are pointing it out?
It's almost like you're subtly encouraging it.

I'm telling her to stop complaining. If she really has a problem, there's the exit. "Put up or shut up" would be a good comparison.

If she really gives a shit about the state of the world, she needs to stop wining about it and actually do something. She'd be a much more happy and fulfilled person in life working to make the world better, rather than working so hard to make it worse while destroying herself as she is doing.

As to the point of encouraging suicide, though: For perhaps most people, suicide is a tragedy, because they at least on some level care about being good people, and are usually just misinformed and need help. There are, however, people who are just indifferent to the suffering of the world around them and don't care at all -- and perhaps never will. This may make up about 1% of the population, in terms of psychopaths.
Not all suicides are a tragedy.

I want to know what the consequences are.
What if Hitler (although probably not a psychopath) had killed himself as an angsty struggling artist rather than going into politics and catalyzing the holocaust?

It is of course a wrong to kill somebody who doesn't want to die -- the action is in violation of a will, and it goes against the social contract (of course) and has all sorts of bad consequences.
But if a person wants to kill his or herself, is fully informed (not just temporarily depressed or misunderstanding reality, etc.), and the consequences of that are that the world is a better place because that person had no capacity for doing anything good or worthwhile in life, and in those likely life choices was also fully informed and chose the path of destructive hedonism willfully... there's a certain point where we may have to admit it isn't the same kind of tragedy it is when somebody with real good potential does it, or a child does it due to ignorance or depression.

Her posts in the past have been consistently and profoundly indifferent to the suffering of others, and now they even contain zeal for the idea of those she loathes (for no good reason) suffering. She may be a legitimate sociopath.
I would be quite surprised if she has changed and cares about secular morality at all.

[Red]

It's all based on certain premises, like scientific methodology, and the untruth of magical thinking and anti-realism. You must accept these premises first.

Hm. Explain.

Of course she is.

well maybe inadvertently

ISIS members rarely kill people.
Discounting inflated numbers from non-civilians, lightning kills far more people than ISIS does.
Given their numbers, some 100k or possibly more, and the number of civilians they kill a year -- maybe 10k -- and the turnover in their forces, the vast majority of ISIS fighters probably never kill a civilian directly, primarily focusing on defense and military targets.
Sure, they engage in terrorism too, but it's really a drop in the bucket in terms of world fatalities.

So I guess we don't have anything to worry about.

the pink one

I genuinely had no idea who you were talking about at first. Why, you refuse to say her name?

These are conservative estimates. Global warming, which the pink one is greedily fueling, will have ten times the death toll of terrorism soon. That's HER greed, killing other people because she enjoys it.
The pink one's support of the war in the Middle East through taxes and wanton waste of resources has also already killed otherwise peaceful Muslims to the tune of around a million.

She's no less a killer, she's just less justified. ISIS are ignorant and don't know any better. She should know better, and could easily change but only doesn't because of apathy and a sense of greedy entitlement.

I stand corrected. So if you have the knowledge and ability to change, go for it.

People who complain that they hate this world so much always have a way out. She should stop complaining.
If she exercised a modicum of effort to become a better human being, she could start caring about the suffering of others and stop being such a angsty miserable lump and do some good in the world.

Teenagers love to complain, dude. It usually tends to be that nihilistic bullshit, but it's just due to our hormonal teenage bodies. not that it's a good thing..

I have little patience for useless complaining lumps of gluttony and self pity.

Well look at me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_hedonism
That's all self serving hedonism will get you.

You gotta do what you love. And the money will follow.

She needs to take control of her life, and start giving a shit about others if she wants to be worth anything in this world.

ouch

That the thing: She has no basis to condemn these things as immoral. She doesn't care about morality.
She knows what she's doing is wrong -- that she's harming her own health, and destroying the world around her (including killing other human beings), but she doesn't care at all.

sounds nihilistic to me. do ya' think this is like a phase or some shit?

She's just a self-centered angsty teenager who likes to complain about things that personally bother her but doesn't care how horrible she is. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Dude, that is like 90% of the teenage population.

ISIS is bad, but she is possibly worse.

ISIS is just ignorant. The pink one (we should call her something else) is influenced by laziness and stupidity.

Like an atheist who believes in ghosts. They're just really big powerful scary ghosts.

spooky

[brimstoneSalad]

Hm. Explain.

People who engage in magical thinking claim that if you believe something hard enough, it will become true.
"The law of attraction" stuff, the universe gives you what you focus on.
So, they think science only works for scientists because they believe in it and expect it to work in certain ways.

For example:
Homeopathy works for people who believe in it; it can cure cancer or whatever. But if scientists study that, because the scientists are doubters, it will stop working when they study it because their beliefs change reality around them.

well maybe inadvertently

She knows she is doing it, and that those are the effects of her actions. How is that inadvertent?

Is it inadvertent to kill people by shooting them in the head if all you wanted to do is shoot people in the head but didn't care one way or another if they died in the process (despite that being overwhelmingly probable)?

So I guess we don't have anything to worry about.

Kind of. Terrorism is very rare in the West. It's like people freaking out over sharks, or car airbags.
People are very bad at risk assessment, and vastly overestimate the chances of something rare and exotic/scary/ironic happening, while ignoring more prominent and banal dangers.

We shouldn't be in the Middle East, we should just trade with them and share our culture so they can gradually come around to secular civilization in their own time.

Well look at me

You seem to do a lot better than most.

You gotta do what you love. And the money will follow.

You have to aspire to purpose beyond yourself, like working to help others and reduce suffering in the world, and happiness and personal fulfillment will follow.
It's a bit of a paradox, though, because a nihilistic hedonist has trouble actually caring about anything beyond personal pleasure, so it's kind of a trap for some people who get stuck in immediate gratification.

sounds nihilistic to me. do ya' think this is like a phase or some shit?

Maybe, but it's a pretty long phase. Even people who go through nihilist phases tend to have some concern for others.

ISIS is just ignorant. The pink one (we should call her something else) is influenced by laziness and stupidity.

Something like that. When ISIS is so ignorant they can't even read or access outside opinions, they don't have much ability to change.

She knows what she has to do to become a better person, she knows it would be better for her, the world, make her happier, etc. She doesn't do it out of her biases in favor of her own absurd dogma.

[The6thMessenger]

Lots of responses... all i asked is if Morality triumphs over Truth. xD

[EquALLity]

^Can you answer this question?:

Do you care about being a good person?

[EquALLity]

Do they have the tools, or even the cognitive ability to do that? This is not clear to me. They don't necessarily have access to people with different beliefs, or understand even in the way that Western Christians do that there are other perspectives.

These are primitive people. Barely a step above chimps on the cognitive ladder. I'm not saying this is genetic. Education makes a huge difference, not just to what we know, but how we are capable of thinking.

The Western education system is terrible, but shines relative to tribal Islamic education and indoctrination. For example, Afghanistan has a 38.2% literacy rate. If you can't read and have no access to books or the internet, then the only information you have is what people tell you, and if you will be killed for asking the wrong questions, you don't really have much of a choice.

Ok, good point.

I'm telling her to stop complaining. If she really has a problem, there's the exit. "Put up or shut up" would be a good comparison.

...

The6thMessenger should stop complaining in the absence of efforts to help the world, but that doesn't at all warrant you encouraging T6M to commit suicide.

As to the point of encouraging suicide, though: For perhaps most people, suicide is a tragedy, because they at least on some level care about being good people, and are usually just misinformed and need help. There are, however, people who are just indifferent to the suffering of the world around them and don't care at all -- and perhaps never will. This may make up about 1% of the population, in terms of psychopaths.
Not all suicides are a tragedy.

I want to know what the consequences are.
What if Hitler (although probably not a psychopath) had killed himself as an angsty struggling artist rather than going into politics and catalyzing the holocaust?

Ok, I agree that in very very rare cases, like with Hitler, suicide may overall be a good thing.
I think it's still always a tragedy in some sense though, that the person got to that point, and even if it's overall a good thing somehow, it shouldn't be celebrated.

And perhaps some people will never care about the world, but there's always the possibility.

It is of course a wrong to kill somebody who doesn't want to die -- the action is in violation of a will, and it goes against the social contract (of course) and has all sorts of bad consequences.
But if a person wants to kill his or herself, is fully informed (not just temporarily depressed or misunderstanding reality, etc.), and the consequences of that are that the world is a better place because that person had no capacity for doing anything good or worthwhile in life, and in those likely life choices was also fully informed and chose the path of destructive hedonism willfully...

You don't know the full context of the situation.

I don't see how anybody could commit suicide without being depressed or delusional, though.

[The6thMessenger]

^Can you answer this question?:

Do you care about being a good person?

I'll be honest, I don't know the criteria of a good person, but i'm guessing that it has something to do with compassion, and not wanting to harm others, being kind, as a social thing from one person into another.

That's a bit of a stretch to answer. In a way, yes -- but other times i wouldn't, as it's sometimes in the way of things. I know brimstoneSalad would invoke intellectual consistency, and say that i don't really care since it's not consistent.

But the best i could give you that it's not my top priority, but it is on the list.

[brimstoneSalad]

The6thMessenger should stop complaining in the absence of efforts to help the world, but that doesn't at all warrant you encouraging T6M to commit suicide.

I'm not encouraging her to do either one over the other, am I?

I mean, changing her complacent entitled whiny-brat mindset and actually doing something to make the world a better place would be the best option, obviously.

I think it's still always a tragedy in some sense though, that the person got to that point, and even if it's overall a good thing somehow, it shouldn't be celebrated.

The situation itself, in general, may be tragic. The fact that a child was raised to adulthood without learning a sense of empathy and compassion for others is itself tragic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2-Re_Fl_L4

This kind of stuff is tragic. At least in that case, the intervention was early enough that the girl was mostly saved. With T6M, it may be too late. She shows no interest in being a good person at all, and because of that, it's very difficult to reach her with any argument.

Once you've gone down that road and spoiled a human being beyond repair -- like with violent criminals -- sometimes the best bet is to cut your losses and liquidate whatever is left to start over with fresh human beings.
We shouldn't be killing people against their wills, but if profoundly bad and broken people decide on their own that they don't want to live anymore (which doesn't violate their wills if they do it themselves with full information), that's not such a terrible thing in itself.

You may be more optimistic than I am about T6M's capacity to change, start caring about morality, and become a decent human being.
All I see is a spoiled child turned spoiled adult who is probably irreparably broken and cares for nothing outside of herself, additionally subject to sadistic inclinations on top of her psychopathic tendencies (What did she say about wanting to happen to everybody in ISIS?).

And perhaps some people will never care about the world, but there's always the possibility.

Possibility isn't good enough; we need a certain margin of probability.

If there's a 90% chance a person is only going to do harm for a lifetime, and a 10% chance that person will achieve neutrality at best, the betting odds are not on good consequences.

You don't know the full context of the situation.

You never know anything fully; with that reasoning we can never act on anything. The important point is that we can assess with a few questions whether somebody is informed or not, and of sound enough mind to give consent.

In the case of somebody like Conrad Roy, obviously he was delusional and thought he was going to go to heaven to be happy. That was not a sound decision. He also needed to try medication out to see if something could be found that would be tolerable to him.

I don't see how anybody could commit suicide without being depressed or delusional, though.

Only if you use some kind of circular reasoning and define anybody who doesn't want to live as depressed or delusional. That's not really fair.

There are people of sound mind, without any kind of acute or easily treatable depression, who just do not enjoy life and have no interest in living.

Search "rational suicide", and keep an open mind.
Here's a pretty good reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/c ... _even_for/