Morality > Truth?

[EquALLity]

^Well, it's impossible to force a person to commit suicides.

He didn't just say if T6M wants; he said T6M is "too stupid to keep wasting space on this planet".

[brimstoneSalad]

^Well, it's impossible to force a person to commit suicides.

He didn't just say if T6M wants; he said T6M is "too stupid to keep wasting space on this planet".

That quote is taken out of context, that's not what I said.
She can clearly tell the difference between what I'm saying and what a militant Islamist is saying, she's just being an inflammatory little brat by pretending not to.
If she can't, though, she's both evil and severely retarded and, given she has half the IQ of a jar of mayonnaise, she probably doesn't have the capacity to contribute anything positive to the world.
But obviously she can tell the difference between these two things. She has indicated as much in the past.

That's true, but what you said was still pretty bad.
When your argument is, "It's not that bad, I didn't recommend specific ways for the person to commit suicide"... that's not really good.

She complained about not wanting to live in this world, wanting to go to Mars or something unreasonable like that. Despite not being willing to lift a finger to make it a better place which would actually be fulfilling and make her life less miserable. She's so caught up in self pity and angst, but doesn't care about others -- it's profoundly annoying.
I reminded her, if she's really set on that, she has a way out. It was my way of saying she should shut up or put up and actually do something about the state of the world.

When questioned, I elaborated on the ethics and merits of the few truly irredeemably bad and useless people in the world committing suicide (by their own wills).
Suicide is not always irrational, or a tragedy.

Did you watch that video I linked?

For someone who talks about the Golem Effect a lot, it's interesting that you don't think saying a person is 'committed to being a worthless piece of shit' and basically a lost cause will influence T6M to have that mindset and not change as a result.

Different situation. Golem effect applies to low or negative expectation leading to bad performance. This is the other way around. She clearly has the capacity to be good if she wants to, and I have repeated this many times -- she could be a great and happy/fulfilled person if she would just change her mindset a little, but she has made the choice not to despite all encouragement to the contrary -- and has made it clear she is not open to discussing it or changing her mind. Is it this I am criticizing.
When somebody is committed to an ideology and identity of amorality, there's not much you can do unless that person wants to change.

If you believe she is or may be interested in changing with the right encouragement, though, try to contact her privately to talk about it. Maybe she will respond better.
Keep track of your time. I have spent hours talking to her privately to pretty much no avail (this is one of those cases that I have more information about her than is available here).

If you spend a hundred hours talking to her to convince her to do the right thing, what is the opportunity cost? What could you have done instead?
If you went outside to leaflet, you might convince a few people an hour to reduce meat consumption.

Even if she was more likely not to change, I would still lean towards promoting change as opposed to suicide, because I think the result of change is a lot better than the result of suicide.

If she doesn't kill herself, and there is a 90% chance she will cause 100 units of suffering in her life, and a 10% chance that she will prevent 100 units of suffering, on balance what's the average for people like her?

Is it better that she kill herself, or not, given those assumptions?

Enough time to write these responses.

It's important to quantify this. How many hours at what probability of success?

Words are all we have. It's not a great expenditure of resources.

But has a very low chance of success when used on one person like this.

You tell me. I think this is pretty good.

Leafleting would be thousands of times better than trying to convince an idiot on the internet who has made it clear that morality isn't important to her, and won't even participate in the conversation about how her values are inconsistent. When she runs off like that and won't engage, it's hard to talk any sense into her.

First of all, not encouraging a person to commit suicide is not 'saving' that person, it's just not trying to harm that person.

As I discussed, for a miserable person like her (who will probably lead a miserable life), it's not necessarily harm. There's a certain kind of person who may be better off not being alive (it's rare, but they exist).
Some people can be perfectly rational, and make the decision to kill themselves because they do not really enjoy life (and to the extent they spend their waking hours, it is mainly to escape life).

This never applies to a moral person, whose moral values give them purpose and fulfillment in life. But a person uninterested in morality and who does not enjoy life should not feel compelled to continue living.

If a person, fully informed and not suffering from some acute and short term emotional imbalance, chooses not to live, that is in accordance with his or her own will and is not harmful to that person.

And it's a great thing to make a person care about ethics and helping the world.

It is. And you can do that with a child. Not so much with somebody you have no control over who is committed to a self-identity and "value" system which is by her own description evil.

Working with people who already care about morality and are more open minded is hundreds or thousands of times easier.

[brimstoneSalad]

I edited the post above a number of times; if you're replying now you may want to re-read it since I addressed more points.