Our Current Education System

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Mr. Purple
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Re: Our Current Education System

Post by Mr. Purple »

Stop being, there's no reason to be. You wouldn't have been any smarter today if your childhood was spent in books and learning a hundred languages.
It's massively more efficient to learn languages as a child, and as far as I know, multilingual children have an advantage overall in the rest of their schooling. Trying to learn spanish now is a bummer knowing my dad could have given it to me for free since he is fluent in it. :P
I suppose it could be argued that a child learning a language could be done just as easily in one of those free school settings if there are fluent adults around though.

I have a hard time believing that those einsteins or child virtuoses would have no easier a time than the average population in regaining that information or skill if they tried again as an adult. It seems very unintuitive. Do you have anything you can show me for this? I don't really care as much about adult achievement or IQ as much as I care that the kid retains that particular skill in some way.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Our Current Education System

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Mr. Purple wrote: It's massively more efficient to learn languages as a child,
That's a myth. Adults can acquire languages faster than children can if they are focused.
A quick Google search turns up a number of articles debunking the claim:
http://www.fluentin3months.com/adults-vs-kids/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... rning.html
and more.
Children and adults are different, but children are not exactly better at it.

Also, you would only have retained the language if you used it constantly until now. Children lose their native languages quickly if they transition to a new environment before around 5-6 years old.
Mr. Purple wrote: and as far as I know, multilingual children have an advantage overall in the rest of their schooling.
Myth. Unless that language is English. This is an issue of correlation.
Mr. Purple wrote: Trying to learn spanish now is a bummer knowing my dad could have given it to me for free since he is fluent in it. :P
That mostly would have just been easier because you wouldn't be able to remember how hard it was to learn it. ;)
Mr. Purple wrote: I have a hard time believing that those einsteins or child virtuoses would have no easier a time than the average population in regaining that information or skill if they tried again as an adult. It seems very unintuitive.
This is what the IQ tests say (which is the big factor), and it's been demonstrated that the knowledge is lost.
Whether re-acquisition is easier, it's hard to believe it would be easier given the way that the brain works: I'm not sure if there are any studies on that specifically.

Unless there are studies proving it's easier to re-learn the second time, there's no reason to assume it would not be lost as other information is. When you forget something, it's gone forever.
Mr. Purple wrote: Do you have anything you can show me for this? I don't really care as much about adult achievement or IQ as much as I care that the kid retains that particular skill in some way.
They don't retain the skill in any functional capacity. Whether they retain some kind of "ghost" of the skill that allows them to reacquire it slightly more easily has to my knowledge not been studied. We know that people don't generally retain secret ghosts of forgotten information, though (lost memories, etc.); that would be incredibly inefficient, and it's not how the brain evolved.
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EquALLity
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Re: Our Current Education System

Post by EquALLity »

brimstoneSalad wrote:The purpose is to benefit minority races based on historical disadvantage.
A few questions:

1) Would you have supported Affirmative Action in the past, when racism was much more prevalent and blatant in the country?
2) Do you agree that racism is still a major issue in the country, and while no longer necessarily perpetrated by the government, that minorities are still disadvantaged and that white privilege is prevalent and significant (this is why I support Affirmative Action)?
brimstoneSalad wrote: That's racist, whether you're helping or hindering, because it's basing the hiring policy on a concept of race.
I don't think so. I see it as bringing up one 'race' to another in terms of equal opportunity.
brimstoneSalad wrote:If they wanted a non-racist policy, they could just advantage people whose parents and grandparents were below the poverty level. If you want to fight multi-generation poverty, then fight multi-generation poverty directly.
Poverty isn't the only issue, but I do think it is a major issue... which is why I think public college should be tuition free. ;)
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx
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EquALLity
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Re: Our Current Education System

Post by EquALLity »

Cirion Spellbinder wrote:I don't think most affirmative action supporters are trying to hurt white people, but that isn't relevant. Racial discrimination doesn't have to have bad results for it to be racial discrimination. If I give suicide pills to an Asian person and sugar pills to a person of all other races, I would have discriminated against the non-Asians on a racial basis, even if it was beneficial to them.
That would be racist in that it hurts another 'race' by lowering it.
Affirmative Action levels up one 'race' to another in terms of opportunity.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:Where in oblivion did you get that from? No, of course not, I'm not a conspiracy theorist.
When you said, "that doesn't mean they don't intend discriminate against white people", it sounded like you may have been suggesting that.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:That's irrelevant to whether or not it's a racist policy.
No it isn't, because that's the reason why we have Affirmative Action.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:Yes, that is what I'm suggesting.
:? That makes no sense.

If republicans in South Carolina are largely racist, than other states in that region will have that problem as well. Again, why would South Carolina randomly be super racist?
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:In South Carolina, right? How much of South Carolina is republican? How many of those republicans control businesses, universities, and other places where affirmative action is implemented?
Most of South Carolina is republican. It's in the Bible Belt.
I don't have specific numbers, but it's a very red state. The state north of it just implemented a discrimination policy so bad businesses are pulling out of the state.
Cirion Spellbinder wrote:At what (arbitrary?) line do we make assumptions about a region? We need more information to draw conclusions like this.
It's not arbitrary at all. Why would South Carolina randomly be much more racist than all the other states? We can assume that all the other states in the Bible Belt are the same.
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Our Current Education System

Post by brimstoneSalad »

EquALLity wrote: 1) Would you have supported Affirmative Action in the past, when racism was much more prevalent and blatant in the country?
What have the consequences of Affirmative Action been? And what were the costs associated with the program?

I'm more concerned if something is beneficial than if it is racist.
Affirmative action is racist, but if it has done more good than harm, and been cost effective, then that's fine.
EquALLity wrote: 2) Do you agree that racism is still a major issue in the country, and while no longer necessarily perpetrated by the government, that minorities are still disadvantaged and that white privilege is prevalent and significant (this is why I support Affirmative Action)?
No, I see this as a deontological issue. I don't care if "white" people are all poor and "black" people are all rich, or if it's the other way around, of if it's equally divided.
The issue is that there are people in poverty, and a large wealth disparity. "Race" means nothing to me.

Social programs that want to address this should probably do so directly (which will make them more effective and less controversial), and not give into the race narrative or use racist policies to do so.
EquALLity wrote: I don't think so. I see it as bringing up one 'race' to another in terms of equal opportunity.
Which is racist. You're talking about fighting fire with fire.
That may or may not be effective, but it's certainly racist the moment you base any aspect of policy on a question of race.
EquALLity wrote: Poverty isn't the only issue, but I do think it is a major issue... which is why I think public college should be tuition free. ;)
The main issue is multi-generational poverty, also poor prenatal care (which lowers the lifetime IQ of those children born in poverty); these affect capacity to become educated and employed.
People who suffer from multi-generational poverty are borderline retarded. Just making their education free isn't going to fix that. You can't raise adult IQ by any significant amount.

You need to make particular kinds of education free; like trade school. A retard can become a competent electrician with good training; and that makes a good salary because it's a licensed field of specialization.
These people should not be studying liberal arts, and they can not study STEM at the college level (they are inherently disadvantages by a low IQ -- largely from environmental factors, both prenatal and early childhood).
We also need to focus more on planned parenthood and contraceptive education. Women need to be educated more on nutrition and drug use during pregnancy (the biggest challenge is the first couple weeks before they even know they're pregnant when a pregnancy occurs accidentally).

And finally, there are cultural issues which are anti-education that need to be addressed. All of the free education in the world doesn't mean anything if a child or young adult is mocked by his or her peers for trying to educate his or herself.

None of this has inherently anything to do with "race"; poor whites suffer from the same problems, but nobody cares about poor white trash because there are enough rich whites to make up for it :roll: . It's inherently racist to care about (or support) one and not the other because of race. And it's an impotent policy that assumes the source of these problems is systemic racism, rather than cultural and developmental issues stemming from poverty.
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