Atheist youtubers to subscribe to

[brimstoneSalad]

I think it depends on how you define 'a better person'.

She specifically mentioned something about moral superiority. She doesn't seem to be very worried about politeness generally- and I think she recognizes that ridicule can be an important part of dialogue and doing the right thing.

She seems to have a very inconsistent and un-contemplated view of morality. Something that often confuses true and right, and is otherwise very relativistic or feeling based.

If she doesn't think her actions are morally 'superior', she's just being political correct and doesn't understand morality and like you said utilitarianism.

The latter, I think, which is the most important point. If somebody doesn't think it makes them a better person to be vegetarian, then they won't think it will make them a worse person to eat meat- what stops them from doing it? Sentiment. And sentiment isn't a reliable reason to do anything.

Today she may care about animals and be aware of the violence of slaughter houses, but she's just one weak rationalization away from giving herself an excuse to eat meat. Out of sight, out of mind.

If you're vegan for reasons of moral consistency- in understanding that it's essential to morality generally- then any particular sentiment is irrelevant to the whole.
As long as you wish to understand something like pedophilia to be wrong, and as long as you wish to have moral grounds to criticize those actions while considering yourself above it, you must avoid doing something just as bad from another perspective yourself.

My guess is that she isn't passionate about it anymore

Which I think is my point. She's a whim and a craving away from being a carnist. She doesn't seem to care about animals unless she can see them, and that's very consistent with typical carnism. As a moral relativist, she wouldn't consider it wrong for her to eat meat herself if her opinion and sentiment changed- which it will almost inevitably do.

I give her at least a 75% chance of eating meat inside two years.

Maybe she'll beat the odds, but with how little she seems to care about or even understand morality, I doubt it.

I'll root for her to stick to it, and for her to learn and mature philosophically, but I'm not going to get my hopes up to be disappointed in a year or two when she joins TJ for a giant corpse burger.

And that's something even brilliant minds sometimes think (also heard it from A.C. Grayling). It's great to have Sam Harris arguing against moral subjectivism within the skeptical/atheistic community.

I'm only vaguely familiar with Grayling. Where did you hear him say that? Do you have a link to it? I'd be interested to see how he think he substantiates it.

[Volenta]

I'm only vaguely familiar with Grayling. Where did you hear him say that? Do you have a link to it? I'd be interested to see how he think he substantiates it.

I can't remember the exact place he said it. The closest I get is this, but he talks about it at other places too. He thinks everybody should make his own moral decisions on how to live your life without dictating it to others—which I also think is the right approach, but I draw the line where others (read: every sentient being) are being hurt (although I'm also not trying to get preachy, because of it's counterproductive effects). It seems he also accepts Mill's harm principle (you can see that earlier in his talk), but he's being speciesist here, because he thinks it only counts for humans—otherwise he wouldn't say that he doesn't want everyone to become a vegetarian. I think it's impossible that he is ignorant about Peter Singers position, so I wonder what makes him a speciesist and thinking it's a personal choice to become veg*n.

[brimstoneSalad]

He thinks everybody should make his own moral decisions on how to live your life without dictating it to others—which I also think is the right approach, but I draw the line where others (read: every sentient being) are being hurt (although I'm also not trying to get preachy, because of it's counterproductive effects).

Does he mean without criticizing/persuading others through argument, or does he mean without forcing others? Because there's a big difference there.

The former is relativism, the latter is just non-violence.

Violence to attempt to end another violence is usually counter-productive.

And if it's the latter, does he believe that democratically passed laws are acceptable to enforce social morals (like animal welfare, and animal rights if it ever happens), and does he just disagree with personal force? Or is he more of a libertarian who believes in a strict separation between moral choice and law?

It seems he also accepts Mill's harm principle (you can see that earlier in his talk), but he's being speciesist here, because he thinks it only counts for humans—otherwise he wouldn't say that he doesn't want everyone to become a vegetarian.

Maybe, or maybe he believes meat can be produced without harm? Or maybe he's trying to say that he doesn't want to force everybody to become vegetarian, but he would like it if everybody chose that on their own?

[Volenta]

Thanks for presenting it in this clear way, it seems I was stuck to one possible interpretation.

Does he mean without criticizing/persuading others through argument, or does he mean without forcing others? Because there's a big difference there.

The former is relativism, the latter is just non-violence.

Violence to attempt to end another violence is usually counter-productive.

Definitely the latter one. He agrees with anti-theism and thinks religion should be criticized. But I always find it strange to see these same people holding back on the meat eating issue (just like Jaclyn Glenn does). If Jaclyn doesn't think her vegetarianism is on higher moral grounds, then how is her criticism on religion justified?

And if it's the latter, does he believe that democratically passed laws are acceptable to enforce social morals (like animal welfare, and animal rights if it ever happens), and does he just disagree with personal force? Or is he more of a libertarian who believes in a strict separation between moral choice and law?

He surely lends more towards libertarianism, since he recognizes that many attempts to forbid things are going underground and making them worse. When taking that as a premise, it seems he also thinks that the government shouldn't force people into vegans and establishing animal rights (unless people want so). People are wrong on many things (in the moral context), so not forcing your morals and other choices onto others is the best thing to do. It's of course very anti-humanistic to force other people to form their opinions into yours. I wouldn't say he's a libertarian though; what I can make up out of his talks he's probably a liberal, and probably on the (center) left.

Maybe, or maybe he believes meat can be produced without harm? Or maybe he's trying to say that he doesn't want to force everybody to become vegetarian, but he would like it if everybody chose that on their own?

These are both valid possibilities, the latter one being more likely. I think he could have been more clear in any case.

I also think that if you are to take serious Mill's harm principle, you have to acknowledge that eating meat/dairy/eggs is one of the only exceptions you shouldn't allow people to make their own decision, because there is no justification to not include other animals in the principle. This may sound extreme (especially to non-vegans), so I have to say that I mean to say this purely in the theoretical sense, since I'm aware that it doesn't work in practice.

[brimstoneSalad]

Thanks for presenting it in this clear way, it seems I was stuck to one possible interpretation.

No problem

If Jaclyn doesn't think her vegetarianism is on higher moral grounds, then how is her criticism on religion justified?

She can still criticize religion on factual grounds, rather than moral ones. But from what I've seen she barely knows what she's talking about in either respect. It may sound condescending, but she's still just a kid, really; she has a lot to learn about the world around her.

People are wrong on many things (in the moral context), so not forcing your morals and other choices onto others is the best thing to do.

The trouble is, not everybody is wrong, and this assumes there is no rational way to differentiate who is right from who is wrong, which is not true -- or it is excessively political.

The problem with this kind of reasoning in the political sense (while seemingly reasonable at its face) is the same criticism gun advocates like to point out:

If you pass a law to tell everybody to give up their guns, only the law abiding people will do so, and then only the criminals will have guns.

Only people who are trying to be fair and reasonable will abstain from forcing their morals on others, even if they happen to be in the right, while the irrational fundamentalists will continue to try to force their morals on everybody.

All standing out of the fray does is give ground to those who are in the wrong.

We are in a state of cultural warfare, whether we like it or not, and doing that kind of thing (which may seem reasonable if everybody, on both sides, could actually agree to do that) will only weaken the rational side of that front, because the irrational will never, would never, agree on that point.

Progressives are forced to force progressive morality upon conservatives because they can't come unarmed to a gun fight, and conservatives will never put down their weapons and agree to any terms but complete domination - they will not stop until we live in a theocracy.
And if conservatives ever do offer surrender on those terms, it's because progressives have already won.

[Shadow Fox]

My favorites:

Cult of Dusty - https://www.youtube.com/user/CultOfDusty - I LOVE this guy! He is my favorite.
Darkmatter2525 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMxK3ihepV0 - My favorite Cartoonist
The Atheist Voice - https://www.youtube.com/user/TheAtheistVoice - he is ok. I like him.
Vegan....oh...wait...lol.
The Amazing Atheist - https://www.youtube.com/user/TheAmazingAtheist

These are the Big 5 IMO. I like to think of them as the Black Hand (Elder Scrolls Reference) of the youtube atheists.

[HellNo]

For ex-Muslims, I know this great youtube channel ( sad to say it is not active now ): ) called CEMB Admins (they have a forum too).

It is intended for Muslims who are challenging their faith, but it could be applied to followers of other religions.
Only bringing this up is because I am an ex-Muslim myself, and these videos, mainly 'Questions for Muslims', helped me leave the religion and become the proud Atheist I am today

https://www.youtube.com/user/CEMBadmins

[Lightningman_42]

I would like to mention that Hemant Mehta is a great atheist YouTuber to subscribe to (in most respects), and most of his criticisms of religion are spot on, but his critical thinking skills are very lacking with regards to one specific topic. Yes, you guessed it, veganism. If any members of the forum have not seen this video, I highly recommend doing so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPzL3whpbk0

Until I saw this video I rather liked Hemant and the videos he posts, but this particular one was appalling and I definitely lost some respect for him after seeing it. He is very wishy-washy and unsure of himself. Despite being a life-long vegetarian he does not really seem to understand why he does it, and whether or not animal exploitation and consumption is a serious issue that he ought to acknowledge.

It seems to me like Hemant is a vegetarian entirely due to his Jain upbringing. He applied his critical thinking skills quite vigorously to his old religious beliefs, yet sadly did not do the same to his reasons for being vegetarian (which, ironically, was initially religious in nature). On one hand he acknowledges that the common arguments to not eat animals make sense to him, and also that animals suffer and die for the sake of egg & dairy production. Yet on the other hand he seems to admit that the ethics behind vegetarianism and veganism are trivial to him. He is a vocal atheist who speaks out against religious dogma and the harm it causes to people and society, yet he does not realize how dogmatic, pervasive, and harmful carnism is within most modern societies.

Volenta and brimstoneSalad have had a very fascinating conversation so far on this thread about Jaclyn Glenn, who seems to be a vegetarian for sentimental reasons and unfortunately views it as a matter of personal choice. Hemant Mehta might actually be a more severe case of this same irrational perspective on animal consumption and animal ethics.

TheVeganAtheist,
Would you please consider making a Versus video taking on Hemant Mehta? You've done so with RepZion and the Not-So-Amazing Atheist, but Hemant Mehta's blase attitude towards animal ethics might be an even more severe problem. I'm concerned that his whole "friendly atheist" image allows many of his viewers (otherwise rational atheists) to continue reassuring themselves that animal consumption & exploitation is a matter of personal choice, and not a severe issue to criticize vigorously.

[brimstoneSalad]

Hemant Mehta might actually be a more severe case of this same irrational perspective on animal consumption and animal ethics.

I've seen the video and am mostly familiar with his views, but there are a couple problems:

1. He's basically espousing weak moral relativism, or indifference, and asking a question -- which is much different from making an argument against veganism. He's saying he doesn't know, and asking for replies.
Also, with regard to moral relativism, he does this sometimes with respect to religion too.
To best criticize him (rather than taking on relativism, which is not hard, but is harder to explain and communicate to an ignorant audience) we need to find a clear example of hypocrisy. Can you find some videos or written content by him that take a hard stance against immorality in some regard, rather than a "this is harmful to us" stance?
Or find some hard claims supporting moral relativism somewhere, in order to address that directly (the less ideal approach)?

2. There's not really much content there. Again, it's mostly just questions. It's not usually nice to jump on somebody for asking an honest question (and I think that was an honest question).
He admitted animals suffer for food, he admitted it's healthier. And then he asked why on the moral or philosophical front.
Can you find more, where he has discussed this in other videos, comments, or articles? He seems to avoid the topic. With Matt Dillahunty, he avoids the topic too, but we had that gem to work with in the Atheist Experience show, where he made a number of actual irrational claims.

We could try to address this in another open letter, but we'd need more to go on.

Here's a transcript (but, again, we need more if we want to address this):

A lot of people have asked me why I'm vegetarian, uh because I am, and I've never eaten meat on purpose my entire life. Like maybe if the taco bell person at the window screws up my order or something but I've never actually eaten meat and the smell of meat is really disgusting to me and so i'm vegetarian. Um and people ask me why I am because, you know, is it for religious reasons, is it for other reasons, and the truth is I was r.. vegetarian my entire life because my parents were brought up as Jains, and Jains believe in non-violence, uh that religions preaches non-violence, and so being a vegetarian and not killing animals for food it's it's part of it so I grew up not eating meat
and when I lost my faith and -- or rather when I gave up my faith because I didn't want it anymore around like 14 -- I thought about vegetarianism and it seemed to still make sense, all those arguments I always heard that you know you shouldn't kill animals you can eat healthy food without it, it it is healthier to be vegetarian, that all still made sense. And so it's not like I started eating meat when I I s- became an atheist, and now you know I've I'm vegetarian, and the funny thing is that I used to think it was such a big deal, and you know I could never date anyone or marry anyone who who was a meat eater. Um, and atheism like I could probably date or marry someone who was religious that wasn't a big deal.
And that has totally shifted! Like now it's like, no, atheism means a lot to me, but the funny thing is my vegetarianism I don't really think it's a big deal anymore. And it's weird because, um, I s- I can eat dinner with people who are eating meat and It doesn't bother me one bit. Like you would think if I was vegetarian for ethical reasons part of me would be really upset when people around me are eating meat and it doesn't phase me one bit, and I have no desire no impulse to to stop them, and even if that's rude, I have no desire to start a conversation about why they would eat that meat. I just don't care, and I wonder if that makes me a bad vegetarian.
Because it's like eh it's my thing, I dont' really care if it's your thing or not. And then but when we talk about ethical reasons, and now I even have to ask myself if I really am doing it for ethical reasons, because I'm not vegan.
I drink milk I eat cheese. I mean I there's a lot of food I eat that animals suffer in order to get it
in or in order for me to get access to it, and I have no problem with that. You know and I should if I'm a vegetarian you would think.
I remember dissecting a cat when I was in an anatomy class in high school, that didn't bother me either I assumed the cat died, and you know just like humans die and you can give your body uh to science
I assumed the cat died of whatever, natural causes, and now I was dissecting it and that didn't bother me either.
So all these peop- I keep reading all of these ethical questions bout vegetarianism, like "what if we could synthesize meat in a lab somehow would you eat it?" and I'm like yeah well I guess that would be OK.
Or "what if the animal died of natural causes would you eat it?" I don't know.
I don't think I would but probably more because it just seems disgusting to me and not for any real ethical reasons.
Uh, I just don't, I don't know where i stand on the issue, and I guess I bring this up in this video because you know if someone's religious, uh very religious, or they're praying around me at the table, or they're preaching their religious faith, inside, I'm kind of screaming on the inside.
You know I try to be polite in public, but part of me wants to have that conversation with them, or I wanna have a debate about why they're religious and why they think god exists and all that, and you would think the same thing would happen around people who eat meat and I don't have that at all
so I guess I'm throwing this out there to all of you, cause I'm sure a lot of, I've met a lot of atheists who are vegetarian for ethical reasons.
I guess, you know, convince me why I should still be a vegetarian more than anything else. It's not like I suddenly have a desire, by the way, to eat meat, and if I go into a store where they're selling meat
like I can smell it and I still don't like it, so it's not like I'm I'm looking for a reason to eat it, but I don't really I don't feel like I have as strong of a justification for being a vegetarian today as I might have had you know a year ago, a decade ago even.
Um I don't know, I guess I'm, I guess I'm almost more disturbed by preachy vegans than I am by people who eat meat who who don't care about it one bit, who don't think about it at all, and I feel like there's something wrong with me.
If I'm a vegetarian and I don't care about why people are not, like there's no part of me that wants to be preachy about my vegetarianism, so I don't know I don't know if you feel the same way, I don't know what your reasons are for eating or not eating meat, but um I'm very curious about what you think about me as a vegetarian whether you think I'm I'm doing it for the right reasons or the wrong reasons or or if it it doesn't matter at all, maybe maybe it doesn't matter it's just my personal thing and who cares. But I'd love to hear some feedback on that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPzL3whpbk0

[EquALLity]

As to the sentimentality, I don't know if Jaclyn thinks this way anymore, but in her older videos, she makes some logical points against carnism (I know they've been made before, but it shows that she understands and subscribed to ethical vegetarianism). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQNf3wfvGFc

I think that the reason she acts like it's just a personal choice sometimes is because of this stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGGfDLh7Qds

She has also mentioned that she separates the belief from the person when it comes to Christianity, and I think she does the same for animal rights issues. She doesn't want people to think vegetarians and vegans think they are and act superior, because it could put people off from becoming one. It would put someone off like it would put someone off from becoming an atheist if we said, "Christians are idiots."