Fat Acceptance

[Red]

Except you have no evidence of this.

I thought brimstone addressed this.

Being overweight was less common because of technology?

Are you kidding me? Really think about this for a second; how much work did people have to do before the age of technology? Manual labor was more prevalent, especially since most people worked the land. You could use a horseback for quick transportation, but I'm not sure how many times it's own weight a horse can carry, but you probably were easier to carry if you were skinnier. This may also be a stretch, but maybe since people got less spiritual over the years, people aren't considering gluttony a much, since it is one of the 7 deadly sins.

I know what you're saying, and I think it's pretty terrible. You're calling most overweight people stupid in a ridiculous snap judgement, and are basically saying Benjamin Franklin is "one of the good ones" (as if it's right to assume overweight people are stupid).

I refer you to the answer I gave earlier.

Jebus just addressed that, though I'm not sure if it was even considered unattractive (from my understanding, there was a point in time where being overweight was considered positive because it showed wealth).

Still doesn't mean it was good.

[EquALLity]

I thought brimstone addressed this.

And he has no evidence for that claim either.

Are you kidding me? Really think about this for a second; how much work did people have to do before the age of technology? Manual labor was more prevalent, especially since most people worked the land. You could use a horseback for quick transportation, but I'm not sure how many times it's own weight a horse can carry, but you probably were easier to carry if you were skinnier. This may also be a stretch, but maybe since people got less spiritual over the years, people aren't considering gluttony a much, since it is one of the 7 deadly sins.

Ok, sure. I just don't understand the relevance of this in terms of a reflection on character (which is what the discussion is about).

I refer you to the answer I gave earlier.

That brimstone addressed it?

How about you just provide the evidence yourself if you think it exists? Or at least re-post what you think brimstone's evidence was.

Still doesn't mean it was good.

I don't understand why you guys won't distinguish between thinking being overweight is a positive thing and not wanting to attack people who overweight.

Nobody said anything about it being good to be overweight. I'm just saying that at the time of Benjamin Franklin, the argument for weight reflecting character/intellect is much weaker due to the historical context.

[EquALLity]

Although I disagree with this I am more concerned that you seem to favor potential consequence over intellectual honesty. Jebus help us if we have to tip toe when we share our honest opinions on a discussion forum.

There is a difference between is technically true and what you should advocate.

The reason why I say you're setting people up for failure is because you're instilling into them that they likely aren't going to succeed.

I see how those other things could help explain obesity but I don't see how they would affect anything that I wrote above.

Example 1: George loves playing video games. He doesn't give much thought to the fact that he is overweight.

Well, maybe if George played tennis instead of video games he would realize the shortcomings of his physical condition. Also, maybe if George didn't spend so much time playing video games he would have learned about the many obesity warnings. There are many other reasons why this other hobby could lead to obesity, such as opportunity time cost.

1) As I've pointed out a few times, we're not just talking about obesity.
2) You're assuming that the things the people care about that aren't weight are things that don't actually matter. For some people, it could be their careers.

Example 2: Fred is an artist. He is happy with who he is and doesn't want to be an athletic jock.

This is a case of stupidity. One interest in life doesn't need to exclude what should be (based on health research) another life priority.

Yes, but some people might just want to focus on other things. They might just not see their health as a priority.

Please let me know if you can think of examples not covered by the above.

Sure, here're two:

Example 3: Maya is very focused on her job and is always on the go, so she often eats fast food. She becomes overweight, but she doesn't see that as a priority, and she just continues with what she is doing because it works for her.

Or-
Example 4 (not really about prioritization, but another example that I believe deviates from your assumed conclusions): Milo is poor and living in a food desert, and he doesn't have easy access to healthy foods, so he often gets fast food. He becomes obese, but he can't afford to go to a gym, and doesn't feel like he has the resources to get healthy through foods.

[Red]

And he

You have no evidence it's a "he".

has no evidence for that claim either.

Just go back and read the thread; there is substance to it. If it were an assertion, I wouldn't agree with brimstone.

Ok, sure. I just don't understand the relevance of this in terms of a reflection on character (which is what the discussion is about).

I don't know, you brought it up.

That brimstone addressed it?

How about you just provide the evidence yourself if you think it exists? Or at least re-post what you think brimstone's evidence was.

Do I have to? brimstone made it abundantly clear.

I'll just list 2:

The people are too; that is not to say that people can't change their mindsets to stop being lazy and increase willpower.
Sometimes people use delusional excuses or are being stupid about something in particular, usually they're just stupid in general.

Intelligent fat people understand why they are fat, and they figure out how they could not be fat, and the only reason they don't lose weight is because they're too lazy to do it. Or, they're in the process of losing weight.

It's very rare to know and not care at all.

There are statistics on IQ and weight. Stupid people are fatter, and fatter people are stupider. This is verifiable.

And if you want me to throw my cents, I will.
If you're fat, you're stupid because you are unaware of the health risks and dangers, and if you are aware of them, you could possibly be delusional and come up with crazy conspiracies of how the media is trying to shame you and shit like that, (just spend 20 minutes on the fat acceptance community on Tumblr, and you'll get a rough idea of this) or you'll probably think to yourself "I'm fat, but that doesn't mean I'll get those diseases", which is the Dunning Kruger effect. I could go on, but you should be getting my point.

I don't understand why you guys won't distinguish between thinking being overweight is a positive thing and not wanting to attack people who overweight.

What? Both things are not synonymous, but both are harmful.

Nobody said anything about it being good to be overweight.

I thought this was about people are pro-fat acceptance, where they just think it's okay to be overweight. Not sure where you're getting this from.

I'm just saying that at the time of Benjamin Franklin, the argument for weight reflecting character/intellect is much weaker due to the historical context.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_IXzU-lnLU

[EquALLity]

What would you describe as strong will? Plus, I think brimstone means that they aren't strong willed in terms of health, exercise and diet, and are probably doing/saying most of the things that they refer to for the notoriety and the money. Just because someone is in politics doesn't mean they are strong-willed.

Actually, no, he's saying they're generally lazy (like how you're saying they're generally stupid, and possibly now you think they're generally lazy also).

Brimstone I think is trying to say the people you listed aren't really all that fat, but are a bit on the heavy side, or maybe just old.

The so what was about the Chris Christie 'ballooned up'.

They all appear to be overweight, and I explained why I don't think it's just age.

Being just overweight isn't healthy either. But obese is kinda the elephant in the room (no pun intended), since it's one of the worse states you can be in in terms of weight.

But the point is that this isn't just about obese people, and that brimstone's arguments didn't seem to be taking that into account.

Not sure if this is really all that important to the discussion.

It demonstrates that Dick Cheney was overweight as VP, not just saggy (because he was more overweight then than he looks now, and he's older and therefore more saggy now).

I think what brimstone is trying to get across is that if you're fat, you're unaware of the dangers of it, and/or you're too stupid to get out of your chair and get on a treadmill.

I don't think he's suggesting people are unaware of the dangers of it, for the most part. He's saying they're all pretty much stupid/lazy/deluded.

My point is that he doesn't have evidence to support those claims.

I'm pretty sure brimstone is implying that people's delusions (which I wouldn't be surprised if it's common in fat people) make people unaware of the fact they are fat, and if they are, they will attempt to rationalize it.

He said: "Sometimes people use delusional excuses or are being stupid about something in particular, usually they're just stupid in general."

He said that usually overweight people are stupid in general (just like he's saying they're lazy in general). My point is that he doesn't have evidence for that claim, not sure what delusions have to do with that.

I didn't see brimstone say that poor people were lazy, and ambitious people are definitely more motivated than your typical person.

1) It could be a subtle implication poor people are lazy when you act like motivated people are wealthy.
2) Ambitious people are more motivated? Well yeah, literally by definition. That has nothing to do with wealth.

They should bring something from home if they're on the go, especially a lot. If they bring something healthy, they probably won't get fat.

People in food deserts might not be able to have healthy food at home either, and some people might just not prioritize healthy eating.

I don't remember brimstone saying that being fat is being encouraged (unless you mean "if you want to be fat, no one will judge you" in that sense), and while you may not be trying to harm the earth, being fat can be environmentally unfriendly. Plus, being fat isn't sexually attractive, so if you're fat, people won't (at least any kind person) put value on you if you're fat, but on the dating market, and probably a few other ones.

The implication in his argument that fat acceptance leads to more overweight people assumes that fat acceptance = supporting people becoming overweight.

It can be bad for the planet, though I'm not sure why you're pointing this out.
No, it's not attractive to most people, but who cares, and... what?
"Plus, being fat isn't sexually attractive, so if you're fat, people won't (at least any kind person) put value on you if you're fat, but on the dating market, and probably a few other ones."
Any kind person wouldn't put value on you if you're overweight, but on the dating market, and a few other markets?
?????

Are you denying it could potentially happen? The vast majority of Americans are overweight, so that may eventually become the norm.

I'm asking for evidence, not denying anything.

Uh... why?

Would you rather hate yourself or be overweight/obese?

It seems obvious to me that I'd rather be overweight/obese, but apparently that's not the case for you.
Would you rather be a bit overweight or hate yourself?

As brimstone said, being fat can make you delusional. You may be arrogant, and think "My doctor doesn't know me! I know what;s best for me, it's my body!", and about the BMI, people may just think that it's just a number and doesn't mean anything, or they may buy into the "BMI is bullcrap" thing.

I don't see that being a serious problem. If people will rationalize that much, they're going to rationalize anyway.

[EquALLity]

You have no evidence it's a "he".

...

Just go back and read the thread; there is substance to it. If it were an assertion, I wouldn't agree with brimstone.

I read it.
If it wasn't just an assertion you would be able to post the evidence.

I don't know, you brought it up.

You're the one who brought up technology.

Do I have to? brimstone made it abundantly clear.

I'll just list 2:

1) The first one is an argument, not evidence.
2) The second one is about a correlation between being overweight and IQ. It in no way demonstrates your claim that most overweight people are stupid.

And if you want me to throw my cents

Er...

I will.

Can't wait...

If you're fat, you're stupid because you are unaware of the health risks and dangers, and if you are aware of them, you could possibly be delusional and come up with crazy conspiracies of how the media is trying to shame you and shit like that, (just spend 20 minutes on the fat acceptance community on Tumblr, and you'll get a rough idea of this) or you'll probably think to yourself "I'm fat, but that doesn't mean I'll get those diseases", which is the Dunning Kruger effect. I could go on, but you should be getting my point.

Tumblr isn't representative of the general population.

Anyway, I don't agree. I think some people just don't care so much about the health risks, especially when they are only slightly overweight and the health risks aren't significant.

What? Both things are not synonymous, but both are harmful.

You don't seem to be distinguishing, because you keep responding that being overweight isn't good, as if that's something I'm arguing.

I thought this was about people are pro-fat acceptance, where they just think it's okay to be overweight. Not sure where you're getting this from.

I think you're confused about fat acceptance.

We're not saying it's good to be overweight; we're saying you shouldn't shame people for being overweight as lazy/stupid/whatever.

[brimstoneSalad]

2) The second one is about a correlation between being overweight and IQ. It in no way demonstrates your claim that most overweight people are stupid.

Most people are stupid, period. Overweight people are just statistically stupider than skinny people.

But even if you just define stupid as "below average" intelligence, yes, that demonstrates it very clearly.

If we divide people into two groups: Overweight, and not overweight.
If we establish that, statistically, Overweight people have lower IQs.
It is statistically pretty much impossible for most overweight people to not be below average. The only way this would happen is an extreme variation from the bell curve.

The smarter people in the non-overweight group bring up the average, and push the peak of the bell curve in the overweight to below average. By definition and statistical inevitability, most overweight people are stupid. Most non-overweight people are not stupid.

[Red]

I read it.
If it wasn't just an assertion you would be able to post the evidence.

And I did. If that wasn't enough for you, do a Google search.

You're the one who brought up technology.

I know. What's your point?

1) The first one is an argument, not evidence.

Evidence?

Tumblr isn't representative of the general population.

Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Anyway, I don't agree. I think some people just don't care so much about the health risks, especially when they are only slightly overweight and the health risks aren't significant.

That's kinda STUPID of them, dontcha think? This has the potential to escalate, especially if they continue with their apathy.

You don't seem to be distinguishing, because you keep responding that being overweight isn't good, as if that's something I'm arguing.

Elaborate.

I think you're confused about fat acceptance.

Oh, then I'm looking forward to your intellectual rebuttal.

We're

Oh, so you're pro-Fat Acceptance?

not saying it's good to be overweight; we're saying you shouldn't shame people for being overweight as lazy/stupid/whatever.

I never said that the fat acceptance movement said that it's good to be overweight.. They think it's okay to be overweight. The terms are not synonymous. And I think a little shaming may help, but I'm no scientist.

[Red]

Actually, no, he's saying they're generally lazy (like how you're saying they're generally stupid, and possibly now you think they're generally lazy also).

My bad then. And I thought most fat people were lazy?

The so what was about the Chris Christie 'ballooned up'.

They all appear to be overweight, and I explained why I don't think it's just age.

I don't know, I'm not a doctor.

But the point is that this isn't just about obese people, and that brimstone's arguments didn't seem to be taking that into account.

Because, as I said, obesity is more of a health risk, and it's more of a problem. If things keep going the way they are now (which they probably won't), by 2030, about 40% of Murka will be obese mofos. And I'm not sure, but brimstone probably is (or at least should) be taking overweight people into consideration.

It demonstrates that Dick Cheney was overweight as VP, not just saggy (because he was more overweight then than he looks now, and he's older and therefore more saggy now).

Who?

I don't think he's suggesting people are unaware of the dangers of it, for the most part. He's saying they're all pretty much stupid/lazy/deluded.

My speculation was false, my apologies.

My point is that he doesn't have evidence to support those claims.

brimstone doesn't just make assertions. At least I hope not.

He

You're one to make assumptions.

said: "Sometimes people use delusional excuses or are being stupid about something in particular, usually they're just stupid in general."

Okay, and?

He said that usually overweight people

I thought you said brimstone wasn't taking overweight people into account?

are stupid in general (just like he's saying they're lazy in general). My point is that he doesn't have evidence for that claim, not sure what delusions have to do with that.

I am uncertain as to if you're reading the thread carefully.

1) It could be a subtle implication poor people are lazy when you act like motivated people are wealthy.

There was no mention of poor people..

2) Ambitious people are more motivated? Well yeah, literally by definition. That has nothing to do with wealth.

They are more motivated to pursue business and wealth and shit?

People in food deserts might not be able to have healthy food at home either, and some people might just not prioritize healthy eating.

So they have no access to healthy food you're saying, but have access to fast food? I am skeptical if such a place exists.

The implication in his argument that fat acceptance leads to more overweight people assumes that fat acceptance = supporting people becoming overweight.

No no no no no no, you got it all wrong. I'm fairly certain brimstone was implying that since that since being fat isn't looked down upon as much, people don't worry as much as being humiliated, so they literally and metaphorically let themselves go. If that's not what brimstone meant, it's definitely not what you think.

No, it's not attractive to most people, but who cares, and... what?

People are gonna be all like "I'm fat accept me for who I am!" on the dating monster, and if you turn them down, you'll be looked at like a souless monster, which could potentially hurt your reputation on the dating market.

Any kind person wouldn't put value on you if you're overweight, but on the dating market, and a few other markets?
?????

Yes, what part of that did not make sense?

I'm asking for evidence, not denying anything.

Google it, I'm starting to get bored of this discussion.

Would you rather hate yourself or be overweight/obese?

I'd rather hate myself, because I'm more useful than a fat guy.

It seems obvious to me that I'd rather be overweight/obese, but apparently that's not the case for you.
Would you rather be a bit overweight or hate yourself?

Okay, I'd choose to be a bit overweight, then hit the gym. Is that a solution?

I don't see that being a serious problem. If people will rationalize that much, they're going to rationalize anyway.

[/quote]
Okay, you're essentially saying it's fine if you're a delusional fat guy. Gotcha.