Thomas Sowell predicts racial balkanization of America (1990)

[brimstoneSalad]

I can provide two tentative reasons why I think it is probable there are higher levels of racism in the police forces:

Much like with spirit channeling and other supernatural unknowns, before asking why or how it works, we need to ask if there's evidence for something there at all. In the case of widespread racism in police, at least in most of the U.S., there isn't good evidence that there's a phenomenon there that needs explaining (there are correlations with statistics like concentrated urban poverty, but nothing exclusively correlated to race that can be shown to be statistically significant).

First we need to show, empirically, that there's something going on, then we can speculate on the causes, then we test those causes, then we can look at solutions and test those.

The start of a solution to the problem of such explicit racism is to call it out.

The start is to show objectively that it actually exists and can not be explained by other confounding variables. This hasn't been done.

It really wouldn't take very much to convince me at all. Unfortunately all of the studies are coming out of a biased position, and are ignoring crucial confounding variables. When adjusted for, the effect vanishes.

Police treatment of urban poor is a serious human rights issue. I don't see it as a race issue, though, and naming it as such just inflames the issue and confounds real solutions.
Unlike a race issue, there are two ways to tackle the issue with urban poor: eliminate the poverty at the root, or focus on police behavior.

I'm all for measures on both sides; body cams for police, and social programs to educate and alleviate poverty.
When we call it what it is, we can find real solutions.

Beliefs have behavioral outcomes. In the case of racism the behavioral outcomes are extremely detrimental to the well-being of racially oppressed groups.

Then the effects of those supposed behavioral outcomes are the problem. Instead of speculating on the causes of these problems (as being racism), we need to identify and name the actual problems individually (like tougher sentences, difficulty finding employment, poor school performance, drug use), determine that they certainly are disproportionately problems for a demographic, and then determine their causes based on differences in the demographics if that's possible, and only after all that is done, investigate the possibility of anther bias if there are no differences.

The main glaring solution to me is prison reform, where sentences become based on rehabilitation and vocational training. That compensates for poor school performance, and assists in employment. And it doesn't rely on the unfortunately politicized job of having to identify a cause.

Drug use is a serious behavioral problem we can't really legislate away, and is primarily driven by peer influence. I don't think we can do anything about that other than decriminalize drug use and dealing, which will help with the prison issue, but may make drug use more prevalent.

Behavioral outcomes include looking at someone angrily on the subway and such subtle things obviously.

That's unfortunate, but people have the right to be racist assholes if they want.
We have to look at what is informing those opinions. Currently, there are still differences in crime rate and behavior on a demographic scale that may be causing the racist attitudes. We can tell people "racism is wrong" until we're blue in the face, but if what we're telling people to believe flies in the face of the facts they believe they are witnessing (and legitimate statistics) it's not going to do much good.
Launching a public education campaign on those grounds like like trying to convince people Santa is real.

Blame, fault, guilt, justice etc. are not just words used in a deontological context. Concepts of culpability have neurological correlates, emotions, which in turn have behavioral effects.

Usually bad ones. From a position of cognitive dissonance, blame almost always goes one way, and people almost always instinctively hold themselves blameless. This goes for the racists, and those who feel the pressure of racism against them. You will never convince somebody to take blame, and that's what would be required to motivate change with such rhetoric.

It's probably better to drop these concepts from public discourse, and just look at policies that fix the problem, and avoid assigning blame.

From a consequentialist perspective "victim blaming" enables people in power to continue their oppression, among other things.

It could be used for that. It doesn't mean it is being so used. You're reading too much into what I said.

Excusing appalling scandals such as the racial discrepancy in sentencing for identical crimes based on "the defendant acting black" is just disgusting. You may not be excusing it but just finding the causality there linked to jury prejudice.

I'm not excusing anything, I'm saying there's no clear way to fix that; that's the path of most resistance. The path of least resistance is to change the behavior of the accused.
Who is more likely to want to change his or her behavior? The Jury, who are unaffected, or the defendant, whose life is on the line?
How about the minority parent, teaching his or her child to assimilate into society to avoid these problems later on, or the majority parent who has to go out of his or her way to expose his or her child to minority culture with no perceptible benefit to that child and only risk?

The person who stands to benefit should be the most motivated to change. It doesn't matter who is to blame.

Such terminology itself creates a defeatist and hopeless attitude in racial minorities. It's not adequate to dismiss blame as a metaphysical concept from deontology, blame is also a social phenomenon.

Blame is subjective, and currently creating a culture war, where two divisive social phenomena of blame are coming head to head; the blacks blaming the whites, and the white blaming the blacks. Neither are objective right or wrong, because the blame itself is a social construct, and within their own respective constructs, they are each respectively right. THIS is what creates insoluble conflict and is inherently a hopeless approach (the only hope of the minority side is to cultivate a culture of white guilt and white self-blame, but with that comes a counterculture and yet more hostility).

Throw out the concept of blame, and instead look at solutions: that should inspire hope, and yield success where other tactics can result in only defeat.

These are words that play a crucial role in the intuitive ethics most people engage in.

Intuitive ethics are the problem here.

If we say that higher sentencing for blacks is caused by racial prejudice of the juries, which sounds highly plausible, then to propose as a solution that the defendant stop speaking ebonics is repugnant to me.

Intuitively so, maybe. That's something that has to be overcome in order to see actual positive results.
I know it sounds unfair, but fair is not right, and right is not always fair. Sometimes we have to take a bitter pill for the greater good.

The assigning of blame is (usually) not a metaphysical, deontological move. It is a social move, a call to change on a particular person.

It's a nice idea, but the person has to agree with the blame (which from a psychological standpoint is nearly impossible) and be motivated to change.

The facts about (inter)racial cognitive biases and prejudices people have, such as intercultural and interracial differences between (interpretations of) expressions of remorse, stress, perceived threat, etc. as good examples, should be looked at fully, including the consequences of our discourse about them.

We really just need better technology in this field, and to stop relying on biased human interpretation of mindset.

White people are not and probably will never be equipped to evaluate these signs in black people, Asians, or anybody outside their immediate cultural circles. This is not a viable solution.

For now, we just have to recognize some problems as currently without solutions, and focus on things we can change.

Our discourse should pertain to justice, and do justice to "justice" because the perception of injustice has bad consequences - it leads to bad feelings.

Only if that's the narrative people are fed.
The consequences come not from a real injustice but the perception of it and the spreading of it in the media as a narrative to sell news stories.
This comes down to the problems of yellow journalism and bias in reporting.

If we say "the prejudice of the juries and the "cultural blackness" of the defendants are in a causal interplay, so either should stop for there to be better outcomes and it's probably easier to teach the black guy to not act so black", that ignores the injustice that is bestowed upon a racial minority.

The injustice in itself is not the problem. Phrase it however necessary, but we need to focus on the part of the equation that's most easily and beneficially changed. If we want to help the problem, that is.

As an analogy, if we were to look for solutions to rape, to assign equal culpability to the rapist and the woman wearing a short skirt and then say wearing more revealing clothes is the easiest solution to the problem, this ignores the (perception of) injustice this would bestow upon women.

We have to change our mindsets.

This injustice is itself a negative consequence. Human intuitions about ethics and justice need to be taken into the consequentialist account.

It doesn't, though, not in itself. It only does if you teach people that's an injustice and you spread that message, and you get them all worked up over it.
If we just let the whole conflict die down, it doesn't matter how we solve it... only that we do.

To look for solutions without regard for justice as a social concept leads to problems down the road. If you say "black person X had himself to blame for being shot by acting shifty, or himself to blame for a higher sentence by "acting black in court", so the solution for him is to learn to act white", that creates tremendous problems for black people, indeed by making them think the system is rigged against them, that they are going to be treated unjustly no matter what, and so on.

No, it's pretty explicit about the "what", and that what certainly does matter. Change your behavior, and you change how others behave to you.
Don't speak Ebonics. Don't dress thug. Don't act shifty. Have some awareness of the justified fears police have of guns, and don't move in a way that implies you might have one.

It takes time for the descendants of slaves to become fully functioning members of society. We need to talk about this in a way that doesn't on the one hand holds them to too low expectations, but on the other hand doesn't ignore justice, existing racial prejudices and the historical setting of this all.

That's the kind of thing that starts a riot if you say it out loud. The problem society faces is a very serious one that resists its own solution.

[Jebus]

I'm not sure what planet you guys are living on that you think the problem is the behavior of black people, and that Obama's "acting white" is somehow evidence of this (as if the President doesn't experience tons of racism).

If Obama was so successful with this method, then why do the Obamas face so much racism?
Just a few examples:
1) Birther nonsense (conspiracy theory that he was born in Kenya)
2) Calling him the 'food stamp President' (Gingrich)
3) Implying Obama is filled with anger and rage (influential conservatives)
4) The Obamas being called 'monkeys' (by elected officials)
5) Obama allegedly being Muslim

Etc. etc.

Please correct me if I am wrong but your position seems to be that "racism" has everything to do with skin color and nothing to do with the behaviors that are associated with that group. I think that in today's world it is mostly due to the latter (which if one thinks of it isn't racism at all) whereas in the past it was primarily the former.

For certain real genetics based racism still exists and can probably explain most of the Obama examples you listed. However, Obama twice won the world's most ultimate popularity contest. I doubt he could have done this if speaking Ebonics, even if saying the exact same things.

[EquALLity]

Police treatment of urban poor is a serious human rights issue. I don't see it as a race issue, though, and naming it as such just inflames the issue and confounds real solutions.
Unlike a race issue, there are two ways to tackle the issue with urban poor: eliminate the poverty at the root, or focus on police behavior.

I'm all for measures on both sides; body cams for police, and social programs to educate and alleviate poverty.
When we call it what it is, we can find real solutions.

You seem to be saying that poverty is the issue, but that hasn't been shown. It's not clear if it's race or poverty- IMO it's probably a combination, but we don't have statistics that prove either. Correlation doesn't equal causation, and that's true with the racial and poverty-related aspects.

[EquALLity]

Sure, I was referring to racism.

Why is "racism" in itself a problem? You're talking about a thought crime.
Isn't the concern poverty leading to poor quality of life and other harms?
How does it harm you in and of itself if some bigot somewhere doesn't like you due to your skin color if you have every opportunity, and you have a good quality of life?

There will always be racists. There will always be dogmatic theists who hate atheists and those of other religions just for not believing. What matters to me on a personal level is whether the laws favor that mindset and the institution gives them power over me to harm me.

I'll let Jebus take this one, though. Sorry for the interruption (I actually have a lot of things to do).

I don't understand. I thought you were saying that bad attitudes towards black people is primarily caused by things like 'acting black', and your reasoning behind this was that Obama 'acts white' (which I don't think is a good explanation due to all the racism Obama has faced). If you don't think racism is a problem, then why would you make this point?

And of course racism is a problem. It's only a 'thought crime' if it doesn't have ramifications in the real world, but it does impact the real world in very significant ways... Do you want me to explain why I think racism has effects on the world?

Of course there will always be racists, just like there may always be radical Muslim terrorists. Does that mean we should try to decrease the numbers of these groups?

[EquALLity]

I'm not sure what planet you guys are living on that you think the problem is the behavior of black people, and that Obama's "acting white" is somehow evidence of this (as if the President doesn't experience tons of racism).

If Obama was so successful with this method, then why do the Obamas face so much racism?
Just a few examples:
1) Birther nonsense (conspiracy theory that he was born in Kenya)
2) Calling him the 'food stamp President' (Gingrich)
3) Implying Obama is filled with anger and rage (influential conservatives)
4) The Obamas being called 'monkeys' (by elected officials)
5) Obama allegedly being Muslim

Etc. etc.

Please correct me if I am wrong but your position seems to be that "racism" has everything to do with skin color and nothing to do with the behaviors that are associated with that group. I think that in today's world it is mostly due to the latter (which if one thinks of it isn't racism at all) whereas in the past it was primarily the former.

For certain real genetics based racism still exists and can probably explain most of the Obama examples you listed. However, Obama twice won the world's most ultimate popularity contest. I doubt he could have done this if speaking Ebonics, even if saying the exact same things.

Why are you guys putting racism in quotes?

Anyway, I agree that racism also has to do with behaviors associated with a race, I just don't think that solving that problem will fix the issue like it needs to be fixed. It seemed like you guys were suggesting that skin color isn't a major cause of racism.
"black people may have to stop "acting black" and just act like Americans -- genetics are not the problem, ingrained cultural differences are"

He did win the elections, but that mean racism isn't still a big problem. Just because you vote for a black person doesn't mean you aren't a racist against black people, and even if it did, there would still be a lot of people who are potentially racist. Obama got a little over half the vote each election. That's pretty close.

[brimstoneSalad]

You seem to be saying that poverty is the issue, but that hasn't been shown.

Poverty, as a result of birth and behavior, is roughly why these people have low qualities of life. Or we could call it poor education, which leads to those behaviors and is intimately related with poverty.
Racism isn't; "racial" groups who are not impoverished (and even those who are) can form their own communities where they're insulated from the effects of prejudice. Jews have done this astonishingly well, as have Asians. No amount of prejudice (which could be clearly demonstrated and has historically been comparable and sometimes stronger) has held them back. Obviously the holocaust did for Jews, but that was something else quite beyond everyday racism.

Certain people not liking you is a relatively minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of things of avoiding those people and seeking out those who do. The only place people can't effectively do that is in jury trials, which are randomly selected.

It's not clear if it's race or poverty- IMO it's probably a combination, but we don't have statistics that prove either. Correlation doesn't equal causation, and that's true with the racial and poverty-related aspects.

What is "race"? Are you bundling in the cultural behaviors? If so, I'd agree. Poor behavior that can be culturally motivated can lead to poverty.
If not, see above; communities can concentrate (and do) around their own in a way that they don't feel the effects of racism, and if they have behaviors that yield returns rather than losses, those communities can do very well.

Even on a larger societal scale, there's nothing institutionally holding educated black people down; the president of the United States is an example of this. That doesn't mean racism doesn't exist, but just that racists don't really matter that much. You give them more power than they actually have when you ascribe these harms to them.

I don't understand. I thought you were saying that bad attitudes towards black people is primarily caused by things like 'acting black',

There are a large array of behaviors involved, from poor management to money to poor parenting (particularly from black fathers, but also poor prenatal care), to Ebonics, to drug use and sexual practice, to disproportionate criminal behavior. These are intricately interconnected.

These are demonstrable, and demonstrably linked to poverty (when controlling for race).
There is no evidence that racism itself keeps people down in the modern day -- this is what Obama is an example of, lacking the poor behavioral trends that DO keep people down.

The bad attitudes are not keeping people down, whatever their cause. There's no evidence of that, and it's disproved when we look at other "races" who have been regarded with much more derision in society. The behaviors are what keep people down -- and there is plenty of evidence of that with and without controlling for race. If you manage money poorly, black or white, you'll be broke. If you do certain drugs, black or white, you'll suffer brain damage and be more prone to criminal behavior.

It's an extraordinary claim to say that racism is having these hidden effects; the default assumption is that well demonstrated behaviors are what's doing it, and probably also what's causing some of not most of the bad perceptions (causality is reversed here).

The only place perception and racist attitudes are particularly relevant are in a courtroom, but we know that a black man who is well spoken can be elected president, which would suggest that at least half of the population isn't overtly racist for the sake of "race".

your reasoning behind this was that Obama 'acts white' (which I don't think is a good explanation due to all the racism Obama has faced).

Birther stuff? Do you think that really cost him many votes? Despite all of the racism that could be mustered, the still won.

There are racists. There are people who will exploit racist beliefs. But they're not a strong enough voting block to keep a well spoken black man out of the white house, or (it should follow) to put well spoken black men in prison when on a jury if the evidence isn't there to convict.

If you don't think racism is a problem, then why would you make this point?

Racism isn't a problem. The belief in racism, causing a persecution complex which prevents the real causes of poverty from being addressed is a problem.

And of course racism is a problem. It's only a 'thought crime' if it doesn't have ramifications in the real world, but it does impact the real world in very significant ways... Do you want me to explain why I think racism has effects on the world?

Yes, and with evidence please. Beyond some people being mean and hurting feelings. And beyond the very rare hate crime. Please show me it's more dangerous than sharks.

Racism is a problem like Islamic terrorism is a problem; it's more the fear of it that does the damage, not the thing in itself which is profoundly rare.

Of course there will always be racists, just like there may always be radical Muslim terrorists. Does that mean we should try to decrease the numbers of these groups?

It means we should stop giving them so much dramatic media coverage and giving them more power to cause people to live in fear than they should rightly have based on their real world effects, which are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, among other threats like lightning and sharks.

Why are you guys putting racism in quotes?

Most things people claim are racism aren't really racism.

Anyway, I agree that racism also has to do with behaviors associated with a race,

That isn't racism, then, that's just facts and legitimate statistics.

If I have to choose which side of the street to walk on, and I see a couple black men on one side, and a couple white men on the other, and this is all I know, which side is statistically safer?
You know the answer to this question, and it's not racist to admit it. We know this is a cultural thing, not something innate, but culturally in terms of demographics, there's a difference in crime rate that naturally results in different rational snap judgments.

“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/5978-th ... this-stage

This is something that needs to be solved by changing attitudes toward finances, education, and parental care, among others. Not fighting an uphill battle of changing the attitudes of white people about black people when some of these attitudes are justified and actually NOT racist in themselves (some are misconceptions, and you can fix those, but many are based in real world statistics) -- particularly when, even if you succeed at rolling that boulder up that hill, it will make virtually no difference at all.

I just don't think that solving that problem will fix the issue like it needs to be fixed.

There will still be some actual racists out there, but it will fix the poverty issue -- the actual issue causing the most harm and damage to quality of life.

It seemed like you guys were suggesting that skin color isn't a major cause of racism.

It's arguably the only cause of actual racism. But actual racism is actually very rare, and it doesn't significantly harm a person's prospects in life; at least nowhere near how the behaviors and poverty I'm talking about do.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2016/06/27/on-views-of-race-and-inequality-blacks-and-whites-are-worlds-apart/
The American population is remarkably anti-racist. You might be surprised to see how infrequent (and how small) reports by blacks of different kinds of discrimination are.

Once the real issues are solved, destroying the misconceptions behind pseudo-racism will be easy, then the real racists will be laid bare for ridicule. Not that they even matter: We can just wait for them to die.

Just because you vote for a black person doesn't mean you aren't a racist against black people,

It probably means you aren't a real racist, you may just hold beliefs about the statistics (some of which may be statistically valid, others misconceptions) about the average unknown black person you may meet.

and even if it did, there would still be a lot of people who are potentially racist.

And there are a lot of lightning bolts and sharks out there too. Don't let them ruin your day; fearing them gives them power they shouldn't have.

Obama got a little over half the vote each election. That's pretty close.

How much did Bush win by over Gore?

[miniboes]

Obama got a little over half the vote each election. That's pretty close.

How much did Bush win by over Gore?

I think this is a rhetorical question, but I'll put down the numbers anyway. Bush had 5 more electoral votes (271-266). Al Gore actually won the popular vote by about 500.000 (0,5%).

[EquALLity]

Obama got a little over half the vote each election. That's pretty close.

How much did Bush win by over Gore?

I think this is a rhetorical question, but I'll put down the numbers anyway. Bush had 5 more electoral votes (271-266). Al Gore actually won the popular vote by about 500.000 (0,5%).

I'm not sure what the point of the question is at all.

Is it to say that all Presidential races are close? Maybe a lot of them are, but I don't see the relevance.

[Jebus]

Why are you guys putting racism in quotes?

I'm using it in quotes when describing a dislike towards a group of people that's based on a dislike of that group's behavior rather than its skin color. I don't like the word racism in this context but as far as I know there is no other option.

Anyway, I agree that racism also has to do with behaviors associated with a race, I just don't think that solving that problem will fix the issue like it needs to be fixed.

Please be more specific. "fix the issue like it needs to be fixed" reads as if you know the solution to a very old problem. All I know is that a black American can reduce his/her chances of being a target of racism by making certain behavioral adaptations. This is an unfortunate reality.

Just because you vote for a black person doesn't mean you aren't a racist against black people

I disagree. I doubt any klan member intentionally voted for Obama. A few of the people who voted for him may not have been entirely free of bigotry but no hard core racist would have chosen a black candidate when a white option was available.