"controversial" things Trump says that you agree with

[Jebus]

I have to think really hard about this one but here are a couple.

1. John McCain was not a war hero because he got caught.
2. People with PTSD are weaker.

[Jebus]

Is there a way to edit spelling errors in thread titles?

[EquALLity]

Clearly you know nothing about John McCain: http://www.newsweek.com/sorry-trump-story-john-mccain-war-hero-355617

[miniboes]

there's probably something, but i can't think of anything right now.

On McCain, there's two statements;
a) McCain isn't a war hero
b) McCain isn't a war hero because he got caught

I may agree with statement a, but I don't know enough about McCain. I don't agree with statement b, because I don't think getting caught exempts you from being a hero.

[Jebus]

Clearly you know nothing about John McCain: http://www.newsweek.com/sorry-trump-sto ... ero-355617

"Hero" is an overused word. JFK was a real hero. McCain was severely beaten and he should be commended for remaining loyal but as far as I know he didn't put his life in severe risk to save anyone else.

By the way, does anyone know what kind of "torture" he endured? I'm guessing it wasn't exactly Afghan torture.

[EquALLity]

Clearly you know nothing about John McCain: http://www.newsweek.com/sorry-trump-sto ... ero-355617

"Hero" is an overused word. JFK was a real hero. McCain was severely beaten and he should be commended for remaining loyal but as far as I know he didn't put his life in severe risk to save anyone else.

By the way, does anyone know what kind of "torture" he endured? I'm guessing it wasn't exactly Afghan torture.

John McCain is a hero because he had the choice between praising the POW camp and being even more brutally tortured, and he CHOSE to be more brutally tortured. He could've gone home.

Have you ever served in the military and/or been a POW?

Maybe if Trump wasn't a draft-dodger whose "own personal Vietnam" was "avoiding STDs", then I could take him seriously when he says John McCain isn't a war hero (it's still bullshit, but at least it's not so blatantly disgusting) and attacks veterans with PTSD from their honorable and brave service.
Until he's not that, he should just shut the fuck up.

In the spring of 1968, McCain's father, Admiral John S, McCain, Jr., was appointed CinCPAC, Commander-in-Chief Pacific, Commander of all U.S. military forces from the west coast of the Americans to the Indian Ocean. By this time, Hanoi's propaganda tactics included the occasional release of American captives who had agreed to go home and speak well of Hanoi's "humane" and "lenient" treatment. When Hanoi learned the identity of McCain's father they crowed, "We have the crown prince!" and he was asked, "Do you want to be released?"

McCain admits that he was tempted. He was in dire need of serious medical attention, he had dysentery and was rapidly losing weight he could not afford to lose. His chances of surviving this seemingly endless war were diminishing. He said he'd have to think about it.

A few days later he says his interrogator said, "The senior officer wants to know your answer."

"My answer is no," McCain said.

"Why?"

"Our Code of Conduct says we must not accept parole, amnesty or special favors."

McCain says his captors said they were anxious to demonstrate their good will. "President Johnson has ordered that you go home."

"Show me the orders."

They couldn't; there were no such orders.

"The doctors say you cannot live if you do not go home."

"The prisoners must be sent home in the order in which they were captured," McCain says he replied.

"What is your final answer?"

"My final answer is No."

Then, he recalls, his captors angrily told him, "It is going to be very bad for you now, McCain."

And it was. Eight or 10 prison guards piled into him, howling with laughter, trying to outdo each other, pounding his face and his slowly mending limbs, battering him.

That was followed by several days of steady torture.

[Red]

John McCain is a hero because he had the choice between praising the POW camp and being even more brutally tortured, and he CHOSE to be more brutally tortured. He could've gone home.

While I'm pretty sure we all agree that it was pretty ballsy of McCain to do that, you still haven't explained how that makes him a hero. Just because it was a brave act doesn't make him a hero (Think about the terrorists on 9/11. They may appear to be heroes to their cause, but whatever). Did him being tortured accomplish anything to benefit the war and/or the country? It may have been patriotic of him, but so what? He could've praised him, and it would have meant nothing. I could say I believe Jesus walked on water, for example.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure he wasn't the only one in all of American history who has done that, and I'm sure a lot of people in the States would do what McCain did.

I'm not condemning him, but I don't think he should be classified as a hero.

Have you ever served in the military and/or been a POW?

There you go again with the "Since you have never been in their position, you don't have the right to criticize them." argument. We never have been in his position, so does that make all of our points and arguments invalid?

[Jebus]

John McCain is a hero because he had the choice between praising the POW camp and being even more brutally tortured, and he CHOSE to be more brutally tortured

I take it you don't believe the testimonies of fellow POWs who said that McCain would "sing like a bird" as soon as the beatings started. Again, I don't understand why you phrase it as "brutally tortured". Torture in itself is brutal, and if you add "brutally" in front of it it suggests that other types of torture pale in comparison. If the descriptions that I have read are true, I would describe the McCain abuse as "regular beatings" rather than torture.

Have you ever served in the military and/or been a POW?

What a pointless dumbass question.

attacks veterans with PTSD from their honorable and brave service.

You do realize you just suggested that all veterans with PTSD had an "honorable and brave service"

[EquALLity]

I take it you don't believe the testimonies of fellow POWs who said that McCain would "sing like a bird" as soon as the beatings started. Again, I don't understand why you phrase it as "brutally tortured". Torture in itself is brutal, and if you add "brutally" in front of it it suggests that other types of torture pale in comparison. If the descriptions that I have read are true, I would describe the McCain abuse as "regular beatings" rather than torture.

Do you have a link to those testimonies?

What does that mean, 'sing like a bird'? Confessed, or just pretended to confess?
Even if he did confess, that's not really a choice when you're being tortured.

He's a hero because he refused to sell out and support a brutal POW camp, despite them torturing him and then increasing his torture.

What a pointless dumbass question.

Ok, so that's a no then.

Maybe once you risk your life to fight for your country and choose to be tortured instead of sent home, then your criticism of John McCain and veterans who have PTSD as weak will be less douchey.

You do realize you just suggested that all veterans with PTSD had an "honorable and brave service"

A lot more honorable and brave then you sitting at your computer spreading ignorant bullshit about them.

[brimstoneSalad]

He's a hero because he refused to sell out and support a brutal POW camp, despite them torturing him and then increasing his torture.

Can you explain what good you think came from this? Did it help anybody or lessen suffering in the world in any way?

Just putting yourself through torture for no good reason kind of seems dumb. Bad ass, sure. But not that smart. A deontological framework would call him a hero for following his rules and keeping his vows no matter what, but that's because they don't care about consequences. I can't see any consequential reason to call him a hero, just a bad ass.
YES it does speak well of his character that he did that. It tells me that if he makes a promise, he'll be loyal and that I can trust him to endure torture to keep it. But... how has he used this sense of trust and credibility to make the world a better place? What has he done as a politician to make the world better? Has that experience of torture propelled him into the presidency where he used the position to establish world peace? Or... has he just been a pretty typical Republican for the most part (albeit admirably more center than far right)?

What is a hero, exactly?
Are the Al-Qaeda members who endured torture at Guantanamo heroes because they didn't just spill the beans on the terror plans?
Does it just apply to anybody who followed their arbitrary principles, regardless of consequence (good or bad)?

What a pointless dumbass question.

Ok, so that's a no then.

Maybe once you risk your life to fight for your country and choose to be tortured instead of sent home, then your criticism of John McCain and veterans who have PTSD as weak will be less douchey.

The criticism may come off douchey and insensitive, because McCain was a "victim", but that's SJW mentality. It doesn't make it incorrect.
It makes Trump a political moron for saying it, because it's hurt him a lot with the right, the military, and particularly veterans.
This is something a smart politician doesn't say. But does it make him wrong?

You do realize you just suggested that all veterans with PTSD had an "honorable and brave service"

A lot more honorable and brave then you sitting at your computer spreading ignorant bullshit about them.

People who served honorably can talk about what happened, which helps cope with PTSD.
People who, say, raped and massacred an innocent village of civilians, or slaughtered a bunch of children, may have PTSD from that but can't really talk about it because of their shame. Soldiers do a lot of terrible shit in wartime. Not all of them, but it's not uncommon.

It would be very interesting to study the efficacy of interventions against PTSD in honorable vs dishonorable cases, since the most effective treatment is talking about it and building up a tolerance to the memories by gradual exposure. I would put money on soldiers with more dishonorable behavior suffering disproportionately from PTSD. That doesn't mean there aren't honorable soldiers who have, particularly if they saw a lot of their friends killed in front of them.

To my knowledge, however, there's no study on this.
We know some people are more vulnerable to PTSD than others, though. It could be that "brave" people are more immune in the first place. And "dishonorable" people are less able to be treated. But then psychopaths would have no problems with that, and maybe they commit the majority of the atrocities? We just don't know the details.
Arguing about empirical claims without data is just the blind fighting the blind.

And we at least know that not ALL veterans with PTSD had honorable and brave services -- we just don't have a good idea of what the ratios are there.
I don't know McCain's situation, but just because somebody was a soldier or had PTSD doesn't mean that person was brave or a hero. Additional evidence and argument is needed.