Safety

[Jebus]

All those factors are true. But also, all those factors only apply to large cities within the U.S.A.

Not true. Crime is high in small cities as well.

If you want to find really low crime in the U.S. you need to go to the farming communities. The correlation between urban population and crime is something you find everywhere, not just in the U.S.

As a whole based on land size versus population, our crime rate is not as worrisome as European countries, especially if you deduct the major cities from the equation.

This I seriously doubt. Care to provide a link that supports that statement?

if you live in an urban hell-hole (Like Chicago or Los Angeles), it is feasible to move to a less populated area

Is this somehow an option that is unique to the U.S.?

in Europe; If some psycho breaks in and decides to kill you and rape your wife, you have an obligation to flee first, then prove that you only used your cricket bat? as a last resort and didn't keep it at the ready as a weapon. (Otherwise you will be jailed)

You would be prosecuted if you use an illegal weapon. Same thing in the U.S.

Correct me if I am wrong (and I often am) but doesn't Sweden have an exceptionally low crime rate, and require each household to have a gun?

This is a double barreled question in which the first barrel is relative and therefore difficult to answer. You are, however, completely wrong in the second barrel.

[PsYcHo]

Not true. Crime is high in small cities as well.

My main point is that crime is much lower in the US than it seems based on certain statistics. Any city will have crime, simply due to population density. (More people=more assholes/criminals)

But much of our country is referred to ( usually by elitist assholes from the highly populated east and west coasts) as "flyover country." There are towns, but not many cities of note; with capitol cities being the usual exception.

If you want to find really low crime in the U.S. you need to go to the farming communities. The correlation between urban population and crime is something you find everywhere, not just in the U.S.

Exactly right, but I believe what you refer to as "farming communities" makes up an enormous percentage of US land mass, and population as well.

As a whole based on land size versus population, our crime rate is not as worrisome as European countries, especially if you deduct the major cities from the equation.

This I seriously doubt. Care to provide a link that supports that statement?

I'm not 100% sure. I've read some statistics on it, but I haven't dived too deep. The fact that you have doubts means you aren't sure as well, but we're still arguing the point.

I do know you can travel hundred of miles in the US without hitting a major city in some parts; Can the same be said of Europe? (seriously, I'm not familiar with the geography in a practical sense.)

in Europe; If some psycho breaks in and decides to kill you and rape your wife, you have an obligation to flee first, then prove that you only used your cricket bat? as a last resort and didn't keep it at the ready as a weapon. (Otherwise you will be jailed)

You would be prosecuted if you use an illegal weapon. Same thing in the U.S.

Maybe this is a "British" law, but if you claim you keep a cricket bad to be used as a weapon by your bed, and end up killing a violent intruder, you have used an illegal weapon. (By saying the bat was for defense, and not its intended purpose, you have admitted to keeping a weapon at the ready. If you just happen to leave your bat lying in the room and kill a violent intruder, of course because you couldn't flee first and had no choice but to defend yourself, not a crime.)

The fact you keep it as a weapon makes it illegal.

I'm a natural pacifist because of human decency, but I keep a fully loaded .357 magnum with hollow points at the ready in my home. In my state, the moment someone enters my home by force (breaking a window, kicking in a door, etc.) I can shoot them and not go to jail. Ironically, in some states with high crime, this would get you sent to jail if you didn't try to flee.

It make be statistically unlikely, but I feel safer knowing I don't have to fear jail for protecting my family.

Correct me if I am wrong (and I often am) but doesn't Sweden have an exceptionally low crime rate, and require each household to have a gun?

This is a double barreled question in which the first barrel is relative and therefore difficult to answer. You are, however, completely wrong in the second barrel.

On the first barrel I agree crime statistics are relative and difficult to answer ( That's what I'm saying as well.), but I thought Swedes were required to spend a year in the military, and issued a weapon which they then kept?

I'm going to leave my last sentence in, because I thought I was correct, but upon researching, I was thinking of Switzerland.

So yup, I was totally wrong on that second barrel.

As an aside, maybe someone with the capability can switch our debate (Jebus and PsYcHo) to a different thread. I didn't mean to derail the sitting for the flag one.

[miniboes]

I'm a pacifist by nature, but in Europe; If some psycho breaks in and decides to kill you and rape your wife, you have an obligation to flee first, then prove that you only used your cricket bat? as a last resort and didn't keep it at the ready as a weapon. (Otherwise you will be jailed)

Harming an intruder in self-defence is tolerated in Europe. However, we also have the idea of excessive self defence, which would be when you do far more harm than an intruder than necessary to protect yourself.

[PsYcHo]

Harming an intruder in self-defence is tolerated in Europe. However, we also have the idea of excessive self defence, which would be when you do far more harm than an intruder than necessary to protect yourself.

While I understand the sentiment ( only do what you must to survive ), if someone breaks into you home while you are there (known as a "hot" burglary) they obviously are prepared to use violence.

Especially in my home, I am not willing to see how much violence someone is willing to inflict upon my family or I; Using maximum (lethal) force upon an obvious intruder is the safest way for the person who didn't start the violent interaction to ensure no violence happens to the innocent victims.

Maybe it is this particular mindset in America that gives us our "dangerous" reputation? (And the crime filled cities I know, but the majority of the country isn't cities.)

I'm curious since the forum has many international members, how many think the US is a "Wild West" crime filled cesspool?

(I didn't want to travel to Europe because of the crime; maybe both parties are hearing sensationalized versions of the truth...)

[Jebus]

My main point is that crime is much lower in the US than it seems based on certain statistics. Any city will have crime, simply due to population density. (More people=more assholes/criminals)

This is why intelligent people look at per capita crime rates rather than total number of crimes.

There are towns, but not many cities of note; with capitol cities being the usual exception.

Mostly true west of the Mississippi. However, irrelevant regarding per capita crime rates.

As a whole based on land size versus population, our crime rate is not as worrisome as European countries, especially if you deduct the major cities from the equation.

No point in deducting major cities from the equation as crime is higher in cities in the U.S. as well as in Europe. Make it simple and look at the PER CAPITA CRIME RATES. Violent crimes, such as murder, is significantly higher in the U.S. I believe theft is more common in Europe.

The fact that you have doubts means you aren't sure as well,

The only reason I had a doubt is that you wrote it and I assumed you had already researched it. Now, I don't have a doubt anymore.

I do know you can travel hundred of miles in the US without hitting a major city in some parts; Can the same be said of Europe?

Same can be said for northern and eastern Europe.

I keep a fully loaded .357 magnum with hollow points at the ready in my home.

I would too if I lived in the U.S.

I was thinking of Switzerland.

Not true for Switzerland either.

[PsYcHo]

My main point is that crime is much lower in the US than it seems based on certain statistics. Any city will have crime, simply due to population density. (More people=more assholes/criminals)

This is why intelligent people look at per capita crime rates rather than total number of crimes.

Then why do so many intelligent progressive people live in the areas with the highest crime rates? Seems kinda stupid to me. (But I ain't gots the intelligence...)

There are towns, but not many cities of note; with capitol cities being the usual exception.

Mostly true west of the Mississippi. However, irrelevant regarding per capita crime rates.

Stockholm is a city, right? Be careful, they have a syndrome that is contagious though.

As a whole based on land size versus population, our crime rate is not as worrisome as European countries, especially if you deduct the major cities from the equation.

No point in deducting major cities from the equation as crime is higher in cities in the U.S. as well as in Europe. Make it simple and look at the PER CAPITA CRIME RATES. Violent crimes, such as murder, is significantly higher in the U.S. I believe theft is more common in Europe.

Are you sure? Are you factoring rape into your violent crime rates? Is it true that police don't even investigate non-violent burglaries in certain parts of Europe because they don't have the resources?

The fact that you have doubts means you aren't sure as well,

The only reason I had a doubt is that you wrote it and I assumed you had already researched it. Now, I don't have a doubt anymore.

C'mon Jebus. I do research certain things, but I prefer to assert things I believe to be true. (IOW, I read something somewhere that was...)

We both made an assumption. (And you're better at debating than me, but I still will throw my hat in the ring.)

My mother had a saying - When you ASSume, you make an ass of you and me...

I do know you can travel hundred of miles in the US without hitting a major city in some parts; Can the same be said of Europe?

Same can be said for northern and eastern Europe.

Thanks. I learned something without doing research.

I keep a fully loaded .357 magnum with hollow points at the ready in my home.

I would too if I lived in the U.S.

I would if I lived in Sweden. (I could tell you how to make them if you'd like... )

I much prefer to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

I was thinking of Switzerland.

Not true for Switzerland either.

I really thought I was correct on this one, and even researched. (a bit) What area am I incorrect on?

[brimstoneSalad]

I much prefer to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

What about having it when when you need to not have it?

The trouble with guns is they don't vanish when you need them to be scarce. Kids get into them and play with them, criminals find them, and sometimes when we'd rather not have a gun it's a little too easy to use (like maybe when we catch our mate in bed with somebody else and reason takes a vacation).
Finding a way to lock a gun up so it's safe, including from us when we don't want to use it, but still making it available for real emergencies we'd want to have it for seems to be an insoluble problem.

[Jebus]

Then why do so many intelligent progressive people live in the areas with the highest crime rates?

They probably wouldn't if safety were the only criterion in the decision making.

Are you factoring rape into your violent crime rates?

Rape statistics are very difficult to compare. Some countries have an excellent rape treatment program whereas in others rape victims will prefer not to report the crime. Also, countries have different definitions of what constitutes rape. In Sweden if a dude rapes a woman 20 times in a week, it would be reported as twenty separate rapes although in the U.S., it would only be reported as one felony.

Is it true that police don't even investigate non-violent burglaries in certain parts of Europe because they don't have the resources?

Probably true in some places but this is no different from the U.S.

I really thought I was correct on this one, and even researched. (a bit) What area am I incorrect on?

http://factmyth.com/factoids/switzerland-requires-citizens-to-own-guns/

[miniboes]

I'm curious since the forum has many international members, how many think the US is a "Wild West" crime filled cesspool?

I think the US is worse than where I live, but I don't think the crime rates are exceptionally high on a worldwide scale; it's much worse in south america, for example.

(I didn't want to travel to Europe because of the crime; maybe both parties are hearing sensationalized versions of the truth...)

Some countries in Europe have a high crime rate. I would be hesitant to go to some of them myself. The differences between various European countries are huge. Central European countries (NL, Germany, Austria, etc.) are really good and eastern European countries are pretty bad, Russia and Belarus in particular. You should be aware that there is no country in the European Union with a higher homicide rate than the US.

What I am curious about - how much does the US government advocate home security? Talking about simple things like getting a good lock on your door and shutting your windows when you leave home. That's what Dutch police forces tend to focus on, and it seems to be the most sensible way to deal with the home intruder problem to me. Burglars tend to be opportunistic and go into a house where it's easy to do so. If they are confronted with a lock that's really hard to open or a complete lack of viable escape routes, that is likely to put them off.

[PsYcHo]

I much prefer to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

What about having it when when you need to not have it?

Valid issues that should be individually weighed by anyone willing to own a gun. Suicide is another reasons some people shouldn't have a gun as well.

For me, I don't have children in my home, and if any were to visit the gun would be secured.

I wouldn't commit suicide because it would harm people I love.

If I caught my partner cheating, I love them enough to be crushed, but never physically harm them. Even if I were tempted, a knife from the kitchen, my hands, or a table-side lamp would be lethal as well. Or a car, a rock, poison, toaster in the bathtub, gasoline, or a myriad of other ways.
A person willing to murder someone will murder them. The tool used for murder is irrelevant, but guns are ...scary.

Valid points, but outweighed by my desire to protect my partner against persons who plan to cause us harm. I don't
want to harm anyone; but if someone is trying to harm us, I prefer to have a fighting chance.