Here I come, Interwebs

[VeganSquare]

Hi guys,

I am so happy to have found your forum. It's a little daunting seeing all the "big brain" activity going on around here, but I will make the best of it and try to learn all I can.

I am newly vegan after flirting with vegetarianism for many years. Honestly, I dismissed the lifestyle for a long time because I only knew vegans who seemed ill-informed but intensely protective of their ignorance. However, I have recently come to the conclusion that I was using these negative experiences to ignore what I knew was morally right.

I do not believe that veganism is natural for humans or even healthy without a lot of man-made supplements that are only available in modern western countries. That being said, as a resident of one such country, I believe I have no excuse to resist doing the bare minimum for the environment, animals, and humanity.

I look forward to having rational, civilized discussions with you all and thank you for letting me in to your wonderful community.

[Jebus]

Welcome VeganSquare.

I dismissed the lifestyle for a long time because I only knew vegans who seemed ill-informed but intensely protective of their ignorance.

There are indeed lots of vegans like this. Their ignorance is harming the movement.

However, I have recently come to the conclusion that I was using these negative experiences to ignore what I knew was morally right.

Great that you realized that. Most people never make it to that level.

I do not believe that veganism is natural for humans or even healthy without a lot of man-made supplements that are only available in modern western countries.

Carnism is definitely not natural or healthy for humans. A vegan diet could be either very healthful or very unhealthful. When done right, it is certainly the optimal diet available. Anyone who lives where there is a bit of sunlight would not need vitamin D supplements. B12 supplements are recommended for people who like eating clean vegetables.

[VeganSquare]

Thanks, Jebus. Love the name, by the way.

I also believe that things like choline, creatine, inositol, and taurine would be important to supplement. They aren't talked about a lot since we still aren't really sure what they actually do, but we do know that they are not present in sufficient quantities in most plants. It may be totally misguided, but I have decided to err on the side of caution on this one. Luckily, there are vegan dietary supplements out there that do have most, if not all, of those things.

I am, however, unswayed by the arguments that veganism is inherently better for humans. This appears to be a balancing of risks, at best. One the one hand, people have been eating meat essentially our entire history. Without it, and things like fur for warmth, many of our ancestors would not have gotten as far as they did. It seems likely to me that humans have evolved to have a dependence upon meat. Our closest relatives, the apes, also eat meat on occasion.

On the other hand, the modern meat industry uses a mix of chemicals and marketing campaigns to fuel overconsumption. Here in America, at least, heart disease is the leading cause of death, which meat has been shown to be a major contributor. Even if one loses out on nutrients here and there as a vegan, it still seems like less of a gamble than consuming beef.

I suppose that was my long way of saying I just don't know about the supposed health benefits of even healthy vegans, but I ultimately value my beliefs over what I cram into my face.

[brimstoneSalad]

Welcome VeganSquare!

but we do know that they are not present in sufficient quantities in most plants.

Well most plant material isn't really edible, but in terms of a sensible vegan diet we don't know that. There's not compelling evidence to suggest that taurine and creatine, which are not present in plants, are essential nutrients for humans or even beneficial for people consuming more than adequate total protein. Too many variables to really say additional supplementation is really helpful.

It may be totally misguided, but I have decided to err on the side of caution on this one. Luckily, there are vegan dietary supplements out there that do have most, if not all, of those things.

I mean it's probably not harmful except for the cost of the supplements, which is probably pretty small. I wouldn't go taking huge doses though.

It seems likely to me that humans have evolved to have a dependence upon meat. Our closest relatives, the apes, also eat meat on occasion.

Ehm... evidence of that would involve identifying a nutrient, like taurine, that humans can't synthesize (like cats). The only real dependence we have that many other animals don't is upon vitamin C, and that's readily available in plant foods.

Just because we may have had circumstantial dependence on meat doesn't mean there's an evolved one that's relevant to the modern day.

Close relatives do eat a little meat, but only rarely: not in a way that would be nutritionally essential. The insects they eat are probably more relevant.