Are lockdowns justified?

General philosophy message board for Discussion and debate on other philosophical issues not directly related to veganism. Metaphysics, religion, theist vs. atheist debates, politics, general science discussion, etc.
Post Reply
teo123
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:46 pm
Diet: Vegan

Are lockdowns justified?

Post by teo123 »

So, as many of you know, I think government-mandated lockdowns are not justified. Here is why:

1) How do you test scientifically that they actually prevent the spread of COVID? Like, how do you make an actual scientific study about it, with a meaningful p-value? Mechanicistic evidence is not meaningful here, because whether or not lockdowns work is a matter of how people actually respond to it (For example, many people responded to lockdowns by rushing into grocery stores and buying unreasonable quantities of everyday products, arguably contributing to the spread of COVID.). To me it seems like you can make essentially two types of study about it:
a) Do non-controlled experiments, like the famous Delaware study. And any conclusion following from them is, of course, a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. I think it should not be controversial that the Delaware study is seriously flawed. First, they imply that the 88% reduction in deaths between April and July in Delaware is due to the lockdown. However, during the same time period, the deaths with COVID also drastically declined in Sweden.
Image
But Sweden had no lockdown at that time. That strongly suggests the drastic reduction in mortality during that time period in Delaware is mostly not due to lockdown, but due to some other factor. Maybe it is Vitamin D, since Vitamin D deficiency (which appears to drastically increase the incidence and severity of COVID) is lower in summer. Second reason why that Delaware study is flawed is that, as they say, the mortality in Delaware peaked one week after the lockdown began. Though they cite that as evidence the mortality indeed started decreasing because of the lockdown, I'd argue it is evidence of the opposite. In order to die from COVID, you need to have it for around three weeks. So, the reduction in the number of infections had to start around two weeks before the lockdown.
b) Do cross-coutry comparisons, to see if there is a correlation between the severety of the lockdown and COVID-related deaths. And, of course, the only way to do that is to lump good and policies together, like the Economic Freedom Index is doing. Obviously, any such study is next to meaningless.
It seems that the claim that lockdowns work against COVID is one of those claims that, while they seem testable at first, are not actually meaningfully testable. Like the claim that circumcision decreases sexual pleasure: how exactly would you do a scientifically valid study about that, one that controls for the placebo effect? If we should have a government in the first place, it should be a government that bases its policies on science.

2) Lockdowns probably have side-effects in the form of damaging mental health (increased suicide, especially among the young) and, caused by that, economic damages. The constant fear-mongering about COVID is, to young people, certainly more harmful than COVID itself is. And it is far more wrong if a policy results in a death of a young and healthy person, who would otherwise live for another 100 years (or by whatever amount of time the human lifetime increases this century), than if it causes a death of somebody who would otherwise live just a few more months. And if people are depressed, the economy cannot work, causing even more deaths. To be fair, it is hard to tell how much effect lockdowns themselves have on mental health and the economy. Obviously, economic damages happen even in countries without a lockdown, as has happened in Sweden. On the other hand, economies of countries are interconnected, and, if the world's economy suffers, Swedish economy will suffer because of that. I think it is hard to deny lockdowns have played a significant negative effect on the economy, even if we do not know exactly how much (compared to just the fear-mongering). The predictions that the economy will return back to normal a few weeks or months after the lockdowns have been implemented world-wide have, as far as I understand it, proven spectacularly wrong.

3) If the studies showing a link between Vitamin D deficiency and COVID mortality are correct, lockdowns are probably counter-productive. Now, this is, as far as I understand it, a very complicated topic. Somewhat similar to the question of whether low-carbohydrate low-protein diets somehow help against epilepsy: many studies show they do, but there is a complete lack of scientific explanation for how they might. I think the most honest position to take here is not to bet on the either side: do not assume that Vitamin D protects against COVID, but do not assume it does not help either. However, implementing lockdowns is basically betting on the association between COVID and Vitamin D deficiency not being true, which does not seem very reasonable.

4) In just about every country, lockdowns are unconstitutional. If we allow the governments to break the law now, they will have more justification for doing so in the future. Government overreach is a serious problem, which can significantly affect the quality of life of those who are young today.

5) Even if we take for granted that properly implemented lockdowns work, there is little relation between what a proper lockdown would be, and what the governments are actually doing. The US government, led by Andrew Cuomo, was putting COVID patients into nursing homes not to overwhelm the hospitals, going wildly against science and undoubtedly leading to even more deaths. The Croatian government organized massive commemorations of the events from the Yugoslav Wars (the commemoration of Vukovar Massacre was attended by around 30000 people) and World War 2, in the middle of the pandemic, which led to a spike of COVID cases.
User avatar
Red
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 3908
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:59 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: To the Depths, in Degradation

Re: Are lockdowns justified?

Post by Red »

teo123 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:36 pm So, as many of you know, I think government-mandated lockdowns are not justified.
Yes, for reasons that have been refuted to you many times on the Discord.
teo123 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:36 pm1) How do you test scientifically that they actually prevent the spread of COVID? Like, how do you make an actual scientific study about it, with a meaningful p-value? Mechanicistic evidence is not meaningful here, because whether or not lockdowns work is a matter of how people actually respond to it
Are you an epidemiologist? Do you have any idea how these studies are conducted? Unless you've talked with an expert about how these studies are conducted, you're just talking out of your ass (as per usual).
teo123 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:36 pm (For example, many people responded to lockdowns by rushing into grocery stores and buying unreasonable quantities of everyday products, arguably contributing to the spread of COVID.).
That was early on, and wasn't necessarily due to the lockdowns themselves and more just people panicking. That didn't last too long and afterward most people did shopping online.
teo123 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:36 pmTo me it seems like you can make essentially two types of study about it:
a) Do non-controlled experiments, like the famous Delaware study. And any conclusion following from them is, of course, a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. I think it should not be controversial that the Delaware study is seriously flawed. First, they imply that the 88% reduction in deaths between April and July in Delaware is due to the lockdown. However, during the same time period, the deaths with COVID also drastically declined in Sweden.

But Sweden had no lockdown at that time. That strongly suggests the drastic reduction in mortality during that time period in Delaware is mostly not due to lockdown, but due to some other factor.
Mike in the server has already refuted this.
mikeminima256 wrote: Sweden's COVID strategy was a total failure. They had excess deaths and overflowing hospitals around Christmas, and they had higher deaths rates and more cases than the other Nordic countries which took more precautions. About 8% of their population got COVID (comparable to the US) but they didn't have it as bad since the people wore masks (better than Americans did), social distancing measures were generally implemented, and they had better infrastructure in healthcare (as well as more doctors) and housing.
Or, just read Wikipedia.
Wikipedia wrote:The Swedish government's approach has received considerable criticism. Some Swedish scientists had called for stricter preventative measures throughout the pandemic,[8] and an independent commission (Coronakommissionen) found that Sweden failed to protect care home residents due to the overall spread of the virus in society.[9] In December 2020 both King Carl XVI Gustaf and Prime Minister Stefan Löfven admitted they felt that Sweden's COVID-19 strategy had been a failure due to the large number of deaths.[10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_ ... _in_Sweden
Even the head of government admitted they fucked up.
Look at this graph that shows the increase in cases, and it's been going up considerably in the past few months.
download.png
No one here in their right mind should trust you on this considering your track record of being outstandingly wrong 95% of the time, so it should be assumed here what you're saying is not the consensus. You do not know better than scientists Teo.
teo123 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:36 pmMaybe it is Vitamin D, since Vitamin D deficiency (which appears to drastically increase the incidence and severity of COVID) is lower in summer. Second reason why that Delaware study is flawed is that, as they say, the mortality in Delaware peaked one week after the lockdown began. Though they cite that as evidence the mortality indeed started decreasing because of the lockdown, I'd argue it is evidence of the opposite. In order to die from COVID, you need to have it for around three weeks. So, the reduction in the number of infections had to start around two weeks before the lockdown.
Holy shit dude you sound so dumb when you try to get at the root of the matter. It's embarrassing when you act like you know anything about this. :lol:

I don't have time to get to the rest of this bullshit as I feel my brain cells commit suicide one by one when I read anything written by Teo. Anyone else wanna weigh in? @mikeminima256 @Lay Vegan @brimstoneSalad @Jebus @thebestofenergy @Jamie in Chile @NonZeroSum

Take your pseudoscience elsewhere Teo, it isn't welcome here, and you're killing more people every time you spread this vile.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Learning never exhausts the mind.
-Leonardo da Vinci
teo123
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:46 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Are lockdowns justified?

Post by teo123 »

Red wrote:Yes, for reasons that have been refuted to you many times on the Discord.
No, they haven't been. Or at least the counter-arguments are not presented in a way that they can be evaluated, which is almost the same thing.
Red wrote:Do you have any idea how these studies are conducted?
Because I have read a few of them. And I know what they are describing is not how science works.
Red wrote:Unless you've talked with an expert about how these studies are conducted
Why should I talk with an expert when I can read those studies myself? Makes no sense.
Red wrote:That was early on, and wasn't necessarily due to the lockdowns themselves and more just people panicking.
What do you mean it was not due to lockdowns? People were afraid that lockdowns would have had more impact on the economy than they actually did. People thought there would be widespread shortages due to lockdowns, and panicked because of that. And what do you mean by That was early on? Since it was early on, lockdowns were unable to flatten the curve, which is what they are primarily there for.
Red wrote:Mike in the server has already refuted this.
And, as I said on Discord, I think that is a huge red-herring. I was talking about whether the Delaware study was flawed (as I believe was obvious from the context). If it attributes the 88% reduction in the number of hospitalizations in Delaware to the lockdown, when there was a massive reduction in hospitalization at that time even at places where there was no lockdown... it is a flawed study. If you do not see it, you can even be a lost case.
Red wrote:Even the head of government admitted they fucked up.
Look, saying that 30% more people would have died without a lockdown is plausible (although I have no idea how to test that). Saying that 9 times as many people would die without a lockdown, as the Delaware study and Politifact claim, is not plausible.
Red wrote: Look at this graph that shows the increase in cases, and it's been going up considerably in the past few months.
Presumably that is due to increased testing, as deaths and hospitalizations are lower than in April.
Image
It is not too different from the US.
Red wrote:Holy shit dude you sound so dumb when you try to get at the root of the matter.
What does it mean to get at the root of the matter?
User avatar
Red
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 3908
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:59 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: To the Depths, in Degradation

Re: Are lockdowns justified?

Post by Red »

I know I said I wasn't going to respond to this, but I think this is important:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/f ... le/2778234

TL:DR Suicides have declined in 2020.
Learning never exhausts the mind.
-Leonardo da Vinci
User avatar
Jebus
Master of the Forum
Posts: 2379
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:08 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Are lockdowns justified?

Post by Jebus »

Red wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:57 pm Look at this graph that shows the increase in cases, and it's been going up considerably in the past few months.
download.png
https://www.statista.com/statistics/113 ... in-sweden/
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
teo123
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:46 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Are lockdowns justified?

Post by teo123 »

Red wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:38 pm I know I said I wasn't going to respond to this, but I think this is important:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/f ... le/2778234

TL:DR Suicides have declined in 2020.
It is an interesting question as to why are exactly the people who do suicide during the pandemic doing that. Suicide has risen sharply in children (by 250%) and in the military (by 30%):
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... 7652468100
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 879477002/
That is rather surprising. I would expect people who have lost their jobs to do suicide. But, apparently, it is the people who are not particularly affected by the pandemic that do that.
Or maybe people in the military and children have the hardest time masking their suicides as unintentional injuries, which have somehow also risen significantly, even though fewer people do dangerous things as jobs during the lockdowns.
Post Reply