I'd like feedback/opinion on this Skype conversation.

[cluoca]

hello I'm Joaquim, I've just registered and I would like to express a big thank you. I hope to expand my knowledge and learn from all of you

Right, to the point. Following a conversation with a muslim man I was left incredibly confused about certain things. I'm sorry for the long long conversation I am going to post, however I feel that in order to understand my question, it has to be read. There you go the conversation I had with him on Skype, and then I few question I have in my head. I've attempted to contact veganatheist unsuccessfully, and I would really like to know what you think. Please note there are 3 posts due to the length of the conversation. I've submitted a few questions at the end of the Skype conversation.

[17/12/2014 00:11:34] Sha Mohammed: please call me sham.
[17/12/2014 00:12:01] Sha Mohammed: oh we have similar yet quite different looking pictures as well. How interesting.
[17/12/2014 00:12:17] Sha Mohammed: Actually my ones better.
[17/12/2014 00:12:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: hahaha it's irrelevant.
[17/12/2014 00:12:38] Sha Mohammed: lol that was a joke.
[17/12/2014 00:12:43] Sha Mohammed: sorry what do i call you?
[17/12/2014 00:12:51] Joaquim　勇気 수김: call me Jo
[17/12/2014 00:13:28] Sha Mohammed: ok, jo. lets voice chat for a bit and see where we go?
[17/12/2014 00:13:39] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I cannot
[17/12/2014 00:13:53] Joaquim　勇気 수김: people are sleeping in my household.
[17/12/2014 00:13:57] Sha Mohammed: whys that? no mic or work tomorrow?
[17/12/2014 00:14:01] Sha Mohammed: i see.
[17/12/2014 00:14:10] Joaquim　勇気 수김: have you studied Islam?
[17/12/2014 00:14:12] Sha Mohammed: ok it'll be texting then.
[17/12/2014 00:14:19] Sha Mohammed: Yes, I am a Muslim.
[17/12/2014 00:14:27] Sha Mohammed: But no a traditional or irrational one.
[17/12/2014 00:14:36] Joaquim　勇気 수김: shia? sunni?
[17/12/2014 00:14:48] Sha Mohammed: However I know that which you do not know. So thats what were gonna talk about.
[17/12/2014 00:15:12] Sha Mohammed: Sunni and shia are both muslims.
[17/12/2014 00:15:36] Sha Mohammed: the differences between the two will have no relation to what we will discuss.
[17/12/2014 00:16:05] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I have many questions...
[17/12/2014 00:16:11] Sha Mohammed: thats because we will talk about the core evidence for muhammed being a prophet.
[17/12/2014 00:16:20] Joaquim　勇気 수김: however, please show me
[17/12/2014 00:17:06] Sha Mohammed: I hope to answer all your questions intelligently, rationally and in the required issues, with physical evidence.
[17/12/2014 00:17:32] Sha Mohammed: please ask everything you need to, so as to come out of the ignorance which I suspect you are in.
[17/12/2014 00:17:53] Sha Mohammed: OK first things first.
[17/12/2014 00:18:13] Sha Mohammed: You told me you have never thought about the existence of God right?
[17/12/2014 00:20:16] Joaquim　勇気 수김: wishful thinking... evidence is heavy on the side that "it does not exist"
[17/12/2014 00:20:28] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I'm apathiest really.
[17/12/2014 00:20:58] Sha Mohammed: evidnece is on the side that it does not eixts? really?
[17/12/2014 00:21:08] Sha Mohammed: What evidence would that be?
[17/12/2014 00:21:25] Joaquim　勇気 수김: well, to me, the only evidence is clear: look around.
[17/12/2014 00:21:54] Joaquim　勇気 수김: that's the only evidence I may have of its existence.
[17/12/2014 00:21:55] Sha Mohammed: look around and whats the point? how does looking around negate that a god exists?
[17/12/2014 00:22:58] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I'm not looking to negate its existence.
[17/12/2014 00:22:59] Sha Mohammed: sorry what are you trying to say by look around.
[17/12/2014 00:23:18] Sha Mohammed: but before you said the evidence suggests God does not exist
[17/12/2014 00:24:00] Joaquim　勇気 수김: another point that makes me believe in god is cell creation.
[17/12/2014 00:24:28] Sha Mohammed: but before you said:
[17/12/2014 00:24:29] Sha Mohammed: evidnece is on the side that it does not eixts? really?
[17/12/2014 00:24:36] Joaquim　勇気 수김: yes indeed.
[17/12/2014 00:25:07] Joaquim　勇気 수김: apart from the cell creation and "evidence" of the complexity of nature... what else can you say?
[17/12/2014 00:25:22] Joaquim　勇気 수김: (without being debunked)
[17/12/2014 00:25:50] Sha Mohammed: so you are saying that besides the very origin of the universe, what other proof is there right?
[17/12/2014 00:26:20] Joaquim　勇気 수김: can it be considered proof really?
[17/12/2014 00:26:52] Joaquim　勇気 수김: the believe in god is a matter of faith (I call it wishful thinking).
[17/12/2014 00:26:54] Sha Mohammed: hey i haven't even started on that. Im just trying to see what your thinking and contentions are.
[17/12/2014 00:27:10] Sha Mohammed: ok now I am understanding what you are saying.
[17/12/2014 00:27:42 | Edited 00:28:15] Sha Mohammed: Let me ask you a question,IF YOU SAW, Jesus or Muhammed perform a miracle, would you accept that they were prophets of God?
[17/12/2014 00:28:07] Joaquim　勇気 수김: no.
[17/12/2014 00:28:17] Sha Mohammed: why?
[17/12/2014 00:28:28] Joaquim　勇気 수김: should I believe in miracles?
[17/12/2014 00:28:51] Sha Mohammed: if you read the sentence, you would see that it said 'IF YOU SAW..' i.e. there was an assumption.
[17/12/2014 00:29:13] Sha Mohammed: i did not say that it happened in that statement.
[17/12/2014 00:29:27] Sha Mohammed: so please answer the question with the assumptions in mind.
[17/12/2014 00:29:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: no, I wouln't.
[17/12/2014 00:29:33] Sha Mohammed: why?
[17/12/2014 00:30:05] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I cannot fathom the concept of "miracle"
[17/12/2014 00:30:28] Sha Mohammed: well instead of saying 'no I wouldn't', you should say please define it.
[17/12/2014 00:30:39] Sha Mohammed: i.e. define miracle and show me it exists today.
[17/12/2014 00:30:55] Joaquim　勇気 수김: define miracle an show me it exists today
[17/12/2014 00:31:44] Sha Mohammed: jo what you will get with me is not a silly discussion as you will find with christians et al so buckle up and please talk intelligently as I have pointed out.
[17/12/2014 00:32:06] Sha Mohammed: Miracle: Something which is outside the productive capacities of nature.
[17/12/2014 00:33:20] Joaquim　勇気 수김: in what ways do miracles exist today?
[17/12/2014 00:33:50] Sha Mohammed: we will come onto that later but we must be agreed on the definiton etc beforehand.
[17/12/2014 00:34:36] Sha Mohammed: If we throw somebody in fire(they are completely naked i.e. no fire proof vest) then naturally speaking they should burn.
[17/12/2014 00:34:54] Joaquim　勇気 수김: they'll turn into ash.
[17/12/2014 00:35:42] Sha Mohammed: If that does not happen(and we scientifically examine that to be the case) then this can be considered a miracle. This means this event(i.e. not burnings is outside what natural law can produce. Natural law shoudl have caused a burn but it did not.
[17/12/2014 00:36:07] Sha Mohammed: 'Apparently' this is what happened to Prophets Abaraham.
[17/12/2014 00:37:04 | Edited 00:37:25] Sha Mohammed: Other examples of miracle could be Moses seperating the red sea, jesus brining back the dead etc. This are all events that cannot be explained naturally and lie outside the productive capacities of nature. Do you understand what a miracle is now?
[17/12/2014 00:37:30] Joaquim　勇気 수김: yes
[17/12/2014 00:38:35] Sha Mohammed: Now I would say that if somebody said they were a prophet of God, ASSUMING they performed a real miracle and we tested and examine it to be real, this would prove that he is a genuine prophet.
[17/12/2014 00:39:25 | Edited 00:40:01] Sha Mohammed: This is because humans cannot do such activities 'naturally'. Therefore in the case of a miracle, there is an entitiy which is capable of manipulating natural law that is helping this person.
[17/12/2014 00:39:58] Joaquim　勇気 수김: or, did it happen for real?
[17/12/2014 00:40:16] Sha Mohammed: like i said i will come on to that. please be patient.
[17/12/2014 00:40:36] Sha Mohammed: like i said we must first fix the basic permises.
[17/12/2014 00:41:16] Sha Mohammed: This is because humans cannot do such activities 'naturally'. Therefore in the case of a miracle, there is an entitiy which is capable of manipulating natural law that is helping this person.So do you agree with me on those statements?
[17/12/2014 00:42:11] Joaquim　勇気 수김: Define activites that humans cannot do naturally.
[17/12/2014 00:43:18] Sha Mohammed: this is based on observation, testing and analysis of human behaviour. examples would be not burning in fire, bringing back the dead, seperating the sea using a staff etc. These are impossibilities.
[17/12/2014 00:43:58] Joaquim　勇気 수김: if they are impossibilities, why do you bring them up in the first place?
[17/12/2014 00:44:18] Sha Mohammed: lol you'll see. Please be patient.
[17/12/2014 00:44:24] Sha Mohammed: Good thinsg come to those who wait.
[17/12/2014 00:45:20] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I don't agree nor desagree with that statement
[17/12/2014 00:45:25] Sha Mohammed: Just to note in human nature, we can generally approach, equal or imitate the activities of other humans.
[17/12/2014 00:46:17] Sha Mohammed: Just to note in human nature, we can generally approach, equal or imitate the activities of other humans.
[17/12/2014 00:46:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: as a human, it is the easy route to make presumptions and put it down to "miracles", instead of things to investigate and find answer based on rationality.
[17/12/2014 00:46:40] Joaquim　勇気 수김: trying*
[17/12/2014 00:46:51] Sha Mohammed: well thats what I already said. We must examine and test it first!
[17/12/2014 00:46:57] Joaquim　勇気 수김: yes
[17/12/2014 00:47:01] Joaquim　勇気 수김: continue
[17/12/2014 00:47:02] Sha Mohammed: please read what or write.
[17/12/2014 00:47:40] Sha Mohammed: a magic trick is neither tested nor examined so we cannot call it a miracle if the performer claims it.
[17/12/2014 00:48:36] Sha Mohammed: therefore since you know understand where I am coming from, do you agree with my previous statements and will a miracle be enough to confirm that a somebody is a genuine prophet of God?
[17/12/2014 00:50:20] Joaquim　勇気 수김: no. Not at all.
[17/12/2014 00:50:27] Sha Mohammed: why?
[17/12/2014 00:51:35] Joaquim　勇気 수김: because it is the "easy way out"
[17/12/2014 00:52:08] Sha Mohammed: what do you mean? how else do you explain a supernatural event.
[17/12/2014 00:52:42] Sha Mohammed: I already said we must examine, test and rationally assess it to be outside the productive capacity of nature.
[17/12/2014 00:53:09] Joaquim　勇気 수김: yes, but out intelligence cannot do that.
[17/12/2014 00:53:16] Joaquim　勇気 수김: our^*
[17/12/2014 00:53:48] Joaquim　勇気 수김: how can you rationally assess a miracle, it wouldn't be a miracle otherwise!
[17/12/2014 00:54:27] Joaquim　勇気 수김: which is what you said earlier really..
[17/12/2014 00:54:52] Sha Mohammed: Of course we can. We just done it before right?
[17/12/2014 00:55:15] Sha Mohammed: Remember the example of the fire that doesnt burn and all the other examples I gave?
[17/12/2014 00:55:36] Joaquim　勇気 수김: that's fantasy (at least for me)
[17/12/2014 00:56:12] Sha Mohammed: you keep going in different directions. I am asking you logical questions based on assumptions.
[17/12/2014 00:56:18] Joaquim　勇気 수김: in the science world, anything impossible they say it is genetic... in the religious, they are miracles.
[17/12/2014 00:56:29] Sha Mohammed: I agree with you we didnt see that, so we cannot be sure they happened.
[17/12/2014 00:56:51] Joaquim　勇気 수김: if you are unsure, why believe in it 100%?
[17/12/2014 00:57:05] Sha Mohammed: I didn't even say I beleived in it!!!!
[17/12/2014 00:57:34] Sha Mohammed: God what is wrong with you man, I am just asking you some logical questions but you go barking up another tree everytime.
[17/12/2014 00:57:45] Sha Mohammed: I said ASSUME so many times!!!!
[17/12/2014 00:57:52] Joaquim　勇気 수김: ok
[17/12/2014 00:58:13] Sha Mohammed: So Assume we see and test it, then that will be sufficient evidence for a prophet right?
[17/12/2014 00:58:22] Joaquim　勇気 수김: yes
[17/12/2014 00:58:27] Sha Mohammed: Finally!!!!!
[17/12/2014 00:58:34] Joaquim　勇気 수김: if I see it, I believe it.
[17/12/2014 00:58:48] Sha Mohammed: Phew
[17/12/2014 00:59:15] Sha Mohammed: Thats wasn't so hard now was it? We could have saved a lot of time had you answered that earlier.
[17/12/2014 00:59:18] Sha Mohammed: Anyway...
[17/12/2014 00:59:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: ill just answer the questions.
[17/12/2014 01:00:43] Sha Mohammed: Muhammed also presented a miracle and luckiliy exists today!!!! I'm going to show it to you, at first you won't understand it, however then i will explain it properly, we will rationally assess it and see if it is indeed a miracle.
[17/12/2014 01:01:27] Sha Mohammed: But before that, I want to return to the question of the eixtence of a creator being...
[17/12/2014 01:01:43] Sha Mohammed: purely based on the physical universe.
[17/12/2014 01:02:43] Sha Mohammed: you said that there is very little evidence for God except for the very origin of the universe and the 'complexity of nature' right?
[17/12/2014 01:02:55] Joaquim　勇気 수김: no.
[17/12/2014 01:03:30] Joaquim　勇気 수김: 1) Complexity of nature 2) Who created the very first cell?
[17/12/2014 01:03:40] Sha Mohammed: yes, sorry my mistake.
[17/12/2014 01:05:11] Sha Mohammed: well let me ask you a question, the laptop/computer you are using, you cannot see the designer/,manufacturer, so why do you believe it was designed and developed by an intelligable being?
[17/12/2014 01:06:02] Sha Mohammed: Where is the evidence that it was designed and developed by an intelligable being if you cannot see the designer or maker?
[17/12/2014 01:07:04] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I can go to the factory and see them being created, and be explained about the process and the complexities of the creation of the computer.
[17/12/2014 01:07:32] Joaquim　勇気 수김: (by the very creators themselves)
[17/12/2014 01:07:43] Sha Mohammed: nope. you didnt go to the factory and see YOUR laptop being created by the creator themselves.
[17/12/2014 01:08:38] Sha Mohammed: In fact you don't know if it was one person, a team of people, girl , guys etc. But you know there was design and development based on logical neccesity.
[17/12/2014 01:09:04] Joaquim　勇気 수김: yes
[17/12/2014 01:09:45] Sha Mohammed: Excatly so the although you cant see the designer/maker the evidence for the designer/maker is the laptop itself!
[17/12/2014 01:09:46] Joaquim　勇気 수김: ( I wont 'argue' as I don't want to go off the branches)
[17/12/2014 01:10:10] Sha Mohammed: Need you argue with my point though, surely it is rational?
[17/12/2014 01:10:53] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I see my laptop, it was made and I can go to a place when I can be explained blablabla.
[17/12/2014 01:11:02] Joaquim　勇気 수김: where*
[17/12/2014 01:11:07] Sha Mohammed: but do you need to?
[17/12/2014 01:11:16] Joaquim　勇気 수김: if I'm curious, i will.
[17/12/2014 01:12:03] Joaquim　勇気 수김: the evidence is there.
[17/12/2014 01:12:06] Sha Mohammed: i think you can logically deduce that design and development is involved, although you don't know the exact nature of those that made it.
[17/12/2014 01:12:27] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I disagree with that.
[17/12/2014 01:12:49] Sha Mohammed: ok so you would know if its a 100 people who made it or 20 people?
[17/12/2014 01:13:05] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I could find out.
[17/12/2014 01:13:36] Sha Mohammed: yes but the context of my statement when I said 'but you do not know the exact nature'is referring to that.
[17/12/2014 01:14:02] Sha Mohammed: And you could indeed find out however you wouldnt be able to do so instantly because of physical barriers.
[17/12/2014 01:14:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: but it can be done, and the truth can be found out.
[17/12/2014 01:14:46] Joaquim　勇気 수김: by truth, I mean, the whole process.
[17/12/2014 01:15:03] Joaquim　勇気 수김: from the material used to create chips to software.
[17/12/2014 01:15:24] Sha Mohammed: e.g. you need to call company, they need to research, they need to be willing to answer, let you visit the designer etc. Logically for rationaly reasons it cannot be done instantly or if a war occured in the country of manufacture and all the information about the company was lost etc.
[17/12/2014 01:16:23] Joaquim　勇気 수김: it would be a palava, no doubt. But it can be done.
[17/12/2014 01:16:39] Sha Mohammed: Well the point i am making is that, you will indeed meet the maker of the first cell and the producer of nature, but your appointment is not now, its after death
[17/12/2014 01:17:03] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I hope so.
[17/12/2014 01:17:44] Sha Mohammed: ok
[17/12/2014 01:18:49] Sha Mohammed: when people say that God was not the creator, they're actually promoting another belief.
[17/12/2014 01:19:05] Sha Mohammed: However these are even more absurd compared to the concept of a God.
[17/12/2014 01:19:13] Sha Mohammed: How tall are you?
[17/12/2014 01:19:30] Joaquim　勇気 수김: to me the concept of god is simply that.
[17/12/2014 01:19:39] Joaquim　勇気 수김: 1'80 ish
[17/12/2014 01:19:41] Joaquim　勇気 수김: and you?
[17/12/2014 01:20:05] Sha Mohammed: im 5'3.
[17/12/2014 01:21:01] Sha Mohammed: ah but why do you say the concept of a God is absurb when we have appreciated that no seeing God doesnt negate his existence as is the case with the laptop, and not having an appointment to see him now doesnt mean you wont see him later.
[17/12/2014 01:21:22] Sha Mohammed: How can you call it absurd when you you can accept these things
[17/12/2014 01:21:40] Joaquim　勇気 수김: no, I am not saying it is absurd, I am saying that the concept of gos is what you've just said "the creator"
[17/12/2014 01:21:52] Sha Mohammed: ok.
[17/12/2014 01:22:57] Sha Mohammed: regarding the age, if I was to say that john is not 1.80 ish then logically speaking, assuming his a human I'm promoting that he has another height e.g. 1.70,1.60, 1.90 etc
[17/12/2014 01:23:41] Sha Mohammed: As with the laptop producers, the creator is a logical neccesity.
[17/12/2014 01:24:11] Sha Mohammed: Anybody who says the universe came from chance etc is just having a laugh.
[17/12/2014 01:24:36] Joaquim　勇気 수김: they are in their own will to believe so.
[17/12/2014 01:24:59] Sha Mohammed: right but its a ridiculous and illogical belief.
[17/12/2014 01:25:26] Sha Mohammed: i.e. they are just infinitely appealing to chance to avoid the notion of a intelligable designer.
[17/12/2014 01:26:26] Sha Mohammed: Its like multiverse theory, that says the universe could be one of many, but where does the multiverse come from? no answer...so they loop into chance.
[17/12/2014 01:28:09] Joaquim　勇気 수김: chaos
[17/12/2014 01:28:22] Sha Mohammed: sorry?
[17/12/2014 01:28:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: neither party can give a logical explanation.
[17/12/2014 01:28:57] Sha Mohammed: why is the creator party not a logical explanation?
[17/12/2014 01:29:48] Joaquim　勇気 수김: it's like saying "what was first the egg or the chicken?"
[17/12/2014 01:29:57] Sha Mohammed: haha not really!
[17/12/2014 01:30:12] Joaquim　勇気 수김: changing the topic a bit now...
[17/12/2014 01:30:12] Sha Mohammed: because we need to think about this logically...
[17/12/2014 01:30:31] Joaquim　勇気 수김: when you die, what happens?
[17/12/2014 01:31:07] Sha Mohammed: Well my answer is based on what the Quran says.
[17/12/2014 01:31:33] Sha Mohammed: However to take the answer seriously perhaps the evidence for the Quran needs to be presented first.
[17/12/2014 01:31:43] Joaquim　勇気 수김: sura?
[17/12/2014 01:31:45] Sha Mohammed: As such I'd rather not answer until I have done that.
[17/12/2014 01:31:58] Sha Mohammed: what do you mean surah?
[17/12/2014 01:32:08] Sha Mohammed: well i know what sura is , chapter right?
[17/12/2014 01:32:14] Joaquim　勇気 수김: yes
[17/12/2014 01:32:17] Sha Mohammed: but why do you write it?
[17/12/2014 01:32:49] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I want to know what the quran says about death.
[17/12/2014 01:33:17] Sha Mohammed: even before we have discussed the evidences that Muhammed is a real prophet?
[17/12/2014 01:33:45] Sha Mohammed: Hey I can write a book saying what I think happens after death, doesnt mean its true or to be taken seriously lol.
[17/12/2014 01:34:03] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I believe Muhammed pbuh was a real person, that's for sure.
[17/12/2014 01:35:02] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I could even believe he may be a messenger of god...
[17/12/2014 01:35:38] Joaquim　勇気 수김: but the scriptures were defenitely alterated to fit some sort of agenda of the time.
[17/12/2014 01:37:17] Joaquim　勇気 수김: having read the qu'ran, I found too many moral inconsistencies that a person like Muhammed pbuh would have NEVER WRITTEN in the first place.
[17/12/2014 01:37:23] Sha Mohammed: Maybe with the bible, and many many other religous scriptures but definately not the Quran.
[17/12/2014 01:38:03] Sha Mohammed: Regarding the apparent 'moral inconsistencies' well return to that after the evidence(which is the most important issue.
[17/12/2014 01:39:07] Joaquim　勇気 수김: the bible........ c'mon sham............ I mean.... the bible..... first they create a bible (similar to th quran btw) then they think oh that's right oh an this, oh and that... so they change it to fit whatever...
[17/12/2014 01:39:20] Joaquim　勇気 수김: A JOKE.
[17/12/2014 01:39:36] Sha Mohammed: yeah i agree with you. bible and most other scriptures have been changed.
[17/12/2014 01:39:58] Sha Mohammed: but the quran hasn't. every quran on the planet traced backed to the very first is identical.
[17/12/2014 01:40:12] Joaquim　勇気 수김: Muslims at least have the balls to stick to their holy book, regardless of what it says and the shock it may pose to modern societies.
[17/12/2014 01:42:45] Sha Mohammed: the quran does not shock modern scientists, and dont know why youd say that.
[17/12/2014 01:43:13] Sha Mohammed: anyway we were doing 3 issues:
[17/12/2014 01:43:20] Sha Mohammed: 1)Existence of creator
[17/12/2014 01:43:34] Sha Mohammed: 2)Proof for Muhammed prophethood(miracle)
[17/12/2014 01:43:42] Sha Mohammed: 3)What happens after death
[17/12/2014 01:43:46] Joaquim　勇気 수김: can we leave it here?
[17/12/2014 01:43:58] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I need to sleep.
[17/12/2014 01:43:59] Sha Mohammed: Yes, its a bit late.
[17/12/2014 01:44:05] Joaquim　勇気 수김: more to come tomorrow.
[17/12/2014 01:44:20] Sha Mohammed: Ok, Stay tuned the best is yet to come!
[17/12/2014 01:44:24] Sha Mohammed: Goodnight!
[17/12/2014 01:44:25] Joaquim　勇気 수김: hahaha
[17/12/2014 01:44:26] Joaquim　勇気 수김: gn
[17/12/2014 23:33:19] Joaquim　勇気 수김: and well
[17/12/2014 23:33:27] Joaquim　勇気 수김: let's continue
[17/12/2014 23:33:37] Sha Mohammed: haha
[17/12/2014 23:34:17] Sha Mohammed: today a friend of mine 'suddenly' made me very busy all day and i'm knackered.
[17/12/2014 23:34:36] Sha Mohammed: i was wondering if i had the mental energy to continue...
[17/12/2014 23:34:44] Joaquim　勇気 수김: don't worry
[17/12/2014 23:35:03] Sha Mohammed: watashi wa ganabarimasu!
[17/12/2014 23:35:36] Sha Mohammed: actually i suppose i could try for a short period at least.
[17/12/2014 23:36:04] Sha Mohammed: btw is it too late to voice chat?
[17/12/2014 23:36:13] Sha Mohammed: i imagine it is.
[17/12/2014 23:36:26] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I NEVER do voicechat.
[17/12/2014 23:36:32] Sha Mohammed: why is that?
[17/12/2014 23:37:34] Sha Mohammed: the miracle that i want to explain to you, would be better done on voice chat. Text on such topics is tiring.
[17/12/2014 23:38:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: it's too late for voicechat anyway
[17/12/2014 23:38:49] Sha Mohammed: i know. but if we spoke earlier, would you voice chat that topic with me?
[17/12/2014 23:39:13] Sha Mohammed: i guess im too tired for that paricular topic in today.
[17/12/2014 23:39:20] Joaquim　勇気 수김: don't worry
[17/12/2014 23:39:27] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I'm curious about you
[17/12/2014 23:39:38] Joaquim　勇気 수김: what are your thoughts on what occured in pakistan?
[17/12/2014 23:40:00] Sha Mohammed: which events are you referring to? sorry i havn't been on the news recently
[17/12/2014 23:40:33] Sha Mohammed: oh my god!
[17/12/2014 23:40:44] Sha Mohammed: the school incident which I am reading about?
[17/12/2014 23:40:50] Joaquim　勇気 수김: today when I went to my local foreign shop, I looked at the daily mail a picture of a massacre in pakistan...
[17/12/2014 23:41:51] Sha Mohammed: let me read the aricle and see exactly what happened....
[17/12/2014 23:41:59] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I wouldn't...
[17/12/2014 23:42:18] Sha Mohammed: why?
[17/12/2014 23:42:30] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I don't like reading British newspapers personally... they are so biased.
[17/12/2014 23:42:59] Sha Mohammed: yes, i my response to your first question would have been, ASSUMING what we read is true....
[17/12/2014 23:43:53] Sha Mohammed: However I use various sources for news, eastern, western and underground sources etc so i eventually find out the truth about many things that most of the public wouldn't.
[17/12/2014 23:44:32] Joaquim　勇気 수김: what are your thoughts on Mr Choudry?
[17/12/2014 23:44:53] Sha Mohammed: which mr choudry?
[17/12/2014 23:45:10] Joaquim　勇気 수김: do you think he actually works for the british government?
[17/12/2014 23:45:26] Sha Mohammed: oh you mean the mp guy?
[17/12/2014 23:45:56] Joaquim　勇気 수김: Amjem Choudry.
[17/12/2014 23:46:05] Sha Mohammed: oh that nutter.
[17/12/2014 23:46:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
[17/12/2014 23:46:43] Joaquim　勇気 수김: nutter?
[17/12/2014 23:46:48] Sha Mohammed: well what you have to understand is he is just a psycho, some of what he says is true e.g. condemining western intervention and other things.
[17/12/2014 23:47:05] Joaquim　勇気 수김: he tells the truth
[17/12/2014 23:47:09] Joaquim　勇気 수김: lol
[17/12/2014 23:47:11] Sha Mohammed: however the way he is potraying the islamic response is completely wrong.
[17/12/2014 23:47:34] Sha Mohammed: yes, he tells the truth, but then he makes islam look like it has a bad response as well.
[17/12/2014 23:48:06] Sha Mohammed: e,g, he seems to advocate ISIS, however majority muslims including me do not consider them legititmate.
[17/12/2014 23:48:43 | Edited 23:49:03] Sha Mohammed: its possible to speak truth on certain matters but promote a negative alternatiev as well e.g. refute capitalism but then promote communism. both are failures.
[17/12/2014 23:49:11] Joaquim　勇気 수김: what are your thoughts on same-sex marriage?
[17/12/2014 23:49:37] Joaquim　勇気 수김: owhat about abortion?
[17/12/2014 23:49:40] Sha Mohammed: well before i answer that question we need to answer the question who defines good and bad?
[17/12/2014 23:49:43] Sha Mohammed: right and wrong?
[17/12/2014 23:49:47] Sha Mohammed: etc.
[17/12/2014 23:50:20] Sha Mohammed: when we answer those then the issues on same sex marriages, abortion etc will be clear.
[17/12/2014 23:51:12 | Edited 23:51:45] Sha Mohammed: however if your answer to 'who and how to you define good and bad' is not objective and not based on a intelleigent and solid basis, then you cannot possibly expect to have an absolute answer.
[17/12/2014 23:52:20] Joaquim　勇気 수김: coul we say relgious people have objective opinions on matters?
[17/12/2014 23:54:20] Sha Mohammed: the issue is that religous people claim to that their religion is metaphysical truth and that their definitions of good and bad come from God. ASSUMING their religion is true and what it mentions in their doctrine is directly from God, then yes it is objective.
[17/12/2014 23:54:57] Sha Mohammed: However as we both know, most religions are questionable and at least their doctrines seem to be from men, there for they arn't from God.
[17/12/2014 23:55:17] Joaquim　勇気 수김:
[17/12/2014 23:55:39] Sha Mohammed: why are you suprised?
[17/12/2014 23:57:15] Joaquim　勇気 수김: are you implying that you have a set of beliefs (Islam) which you believe they haven't been written by god?
[17/12/2014 23:57:52] Sha Mohammed: Nope. I belive Quran is 100% from God. Stay tuned for why I believe that.
[17/12/2014 23:58:19 | Edited 23:58:34] Sha Mohammed: If I am correct, then 'my definition' of good and bad is objective.
[17/12/2014 23:58:41] Joaquim　勇気 수김: but... can I argue the inconsistencies I see in the quran...?
[17/12/2014 23:59:06] Joaquim　勇気 수김: or is this something that is gonna make you very angry, and you'll en up either ignoring me or calling me names?
[17/12/2014 23:59:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: because with all the muslims I've talked to, they all say the same to me...
[17/12/2014 23:59:34] Sha Mohammed: for example vegetarianism, if God did indeed create 'some' animals for our consumption, then vegetariansim is true and purely subjective.
[18/12/2014 00:00:03] Sha Mohammed: You can criticise as much as you want so long as you do intelligently, rationally, logically and politely.
[18/12/2014 00:00:15] Sha Mohammed: I will respond in a likewise manner.
[18/12/2014 00:00:40] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I've never criticised. I've highlighted inconsistencies.
[18/12/2014 00:00:54] Joaquim　勇気 수김: you can always clarify.
[18/12/2014 00:01:03] Sha Mohammed: thats fine highlight inconsistencies = constructive criticsm so that's fine.
[18/12/2014 00:01:50] Sha Mohammed: put simply i won't get angry at all, i will be happy to fix your bad understanding which leads you to think that the quran contains 'inconsistencies'.
[18/12/2014 00:01:56] Sha Mohammed: so please, fire away!
[18/12/2014 00:02:50] Joaquim　勇気 수김: http://quran.com/23/14
[18/12/2014 00:02:54] Joaquim　勇気 수김: read this
[18/12/2014 00:03:09] Sha Mohammed: ok
[18/12/2014 00:03:47] Joaquim　勇気 수김: http://quran.com/96/2
[18/12/2014 00:03:50] Joaquim　勇気 수김: and now this
[18/12/2014 00:04:32] Sha Mohammed: so what's the problem?
[18/12/2014 00:06:48] Joaquim　勇気 수김: If you look at it... there are serious scientific problems here..... Blood clot cannot grow into anything (??). This idea also came from the Greeks for instance. Aristotle erroneously believed that, humans are originated from the action of male semen upon female menstrual blood, which is absolutely an incorrect assumption. Quran’s assertion on Clot (alaqa?) is completely wrong about human development, since there is absolutely no stage during which the embryo consists of a clot. The only situation in which an embryo might appear like a clot is during a miscarriage, in which case the clotted blood that is seen to emerge (much of which comes from mother) is solidified and by definition no longer alive. Therefore, if ever an embryo appeared to look like a clot it would never develop any further into a human; it would be a dead mass of bloody miscarrying flesh.
[18/12/2014 00:07:41] Sha Mohammed: ah the mistake here is not what the quran says.
[18/12/2014 00:08:04] Joaquim　勇気 수김: no.. please.. no... don't say it...
[18/12/2014 00:08:19] Sha Mohammed: it is your presuming that the words are referring to specific scientific findings.
[18/12/2014 00:08:36] Sha Mohammed: I wouldn't even describe the verse as a scientific verse.
[18/12/2014 00:09:20] Sha Mohammed: the people who promote science in the quran, are actually lay people with no expertise in Quranic Arabic or science.
[18/12/2014 00:09:59] Sha Mohammed: This movement just started in the 80s(recent times) and is actually condemned by the vast majority of qualified scholars.
[18/12/2014 00:10:36] Joaquim　勇気 수김: mmm ok
[18/12/2014 00:11:33] Sha Mohammed: so you should not say the verse is scientifcally inconsistant when it is not even refferring to the thing about which you speak.
[18/12/2014 00:12:28] Sha Mohammed: let me give an example, one verse talks about 'the heavens and earth being joined together and then being cloved asunder'. A few ignorant unqualified muslims started saying this refers to the big bang theory.
[18/12/2014 00:12:41] Sha Mohammed: i.e. singularity forms into big bang.
[18/12/2014 00:14:19] Sha Mohammed: However a A scholar of Quran and science will tell you that they don't know if it does. It is just speculation. Some verses are only there for reflection, we are not allowed to claim it is big bang without having absolute evidence.
[18/12/2014 00:15:08] Sha Mohammed: the prophet(saw) never and generations of muslims never talked about big bang, embryology in a scientific way etc, this is not how these verses are meant to be treated.
[18/12/2014 00:16:23 | Edited 00:16:41] Sha Mohammed: the problem is what some lay muslims and mislead non-muslims(like yourself) are doing by saying the verses represent specifc scientiific findings when thats not neccesarily the case. Unless we have very clear evidence, which we don't, nobody can claim to know what the verses are refferring to.
[18/12/2014 00:18:59 | Edited 00:20:04] Sha Mohammed: e.g. a part of the quran refer to man as being created from clay, some muslim said this refers to the minerals in clay and it's relation human formation, this might be the case, however my question to them is 'how do you know?', they have no answer, they just speculating. Shame on them. In such verses, if the prophet didn't give us a clear explanation we just have to take recite and contemplate without knowing EXACTLY what might be being reffered to, rather we concentrate on the fact that we have been created by God in a certain way(the specific of which is know only to God).
[18/12/2014 00:21:06] Sha Mohammed: sorry about all the typing, but its a major misunderstanding lay muslims and non muslims have, needed to explain.
[18/12/2014 00:26:34] Joaquim　勇気 수김: ok
[18/12/2014 00:27:03] Joaquim　勇気 수김: according to the quran, is the earth flat?
[18/12/2014 00:27:17] Sha Mohammed: no. absolutely not.
[18/12/2014 00:27:55] Joaquim　勇気 수김: http://quran.com/15/19
[18/12/2014 00:28:46] Sha Mohammed: what about that verse?
[18/12/2014 00:28:47] Joaquim　勇気 수김: http://quran.com/78/6-7
[18/12/2014 00:29:32] Joaquim　勇気 수김: God was sure that earth is flat like a carpet and mountains are there to anchor the earth so that earth does not shake with us??
[18/12/2014 00:29:36] Sha Mohammed: yeah whays the problem?
[18/12/2014 00:29:53] Sha Mohammed: no no.
[18/12/2014 00:30:03] Sha Mohammed: you are misunderstanding what the quran is saying.
[18/12/2014 00:30:31] Sha Mohammed: What you have too understand is, you are not even reading the actual Quran.
[18/12/2014 00:30:46] Sha Mohammed: The ACTUAL AND ONLY QURAN is the Arabic one.
[18/12/2014 00:31:03] Sha Mohammed: When you translate into another language it is impossible to do it properly.
[18/12/2014 00:31:28] Joaquim　勇気 수김: how many muslims in the world are actually native speakers of Classical Arabic?
[18/12/2014 00:31:37] Sha Mohammed: in fact, a sentence in Quranic arabic can even required paragraphs in english.
[18/12/2014 00:31:56] Sha Mohammed: thats right, the majority do not speak arabic.
[18/12/2014 00:32:03] Joaquim　勇気 수김: so?
[18/12/2014 00:32:06 | Edited 00:32:18] Sha Mohammed: However there is two types of quranic verses:
[18/12/2014 00:32:22] Sha Mohammed: 1)Clear
[18/12/2014 00:32:30] Sha Mohammed: 2)Unclear
[18/12/2014 00:32:53] Sha Mohammed: Generally speaking the most important things(the message is accesible to all)
[18/12/2014 00:33:10] Joaquim　勇気 수김: so, the message is even more adulterated.
[18/12/2014 00:33:19] Sha Mohammed: no no.
[18/12/2014 00:33:21] Sha Mohammed: let me explain.
[18/12/2014 00:33:39] Sha Mohammed: The general message in the quran is clear and based on themes e.g.
[18/12/2014 00:34:27] Sha Mohammed: worship one god, do not worship idols, give charity, fast, treat orphans nicely, contemplate the universe, justice, judgement day, heaven and hell etc.
[18/12/2014 00:35:08] Sha Mohammed: These is the main message it is giving to the people i.e. believe in God, live good lives....judgement day is here etc.
[18/12/2014 00:35:39] Joaquim　勇気 수김: how would you feel if you were told everything is a farce?
[18/12/2014 00:35:51] Sha Mohammed: The 'apparent' scientific verses you are referring to are few and are just directing men to think about creation etc
[18/12/2014 00:35:54] Sha Mohammed: what is a farce?
[18/12/2014 00:36:01] Joaquim　勇気 수김: a lie.
[18/12/2014 00:36:41] Sha Mohammed: what are you refferring to as being a lie? judgement day and all the other themese i mentioned?
[18/12/2014 00:37:04] Joaquim　勇気 수김: yes
[18/12/2014 00:37:24] Joaquim　勇気 수김: what if it was actually the opposite?
[18/12/2014 00:37:52] Joaquim　勇気 수김: god doesn't want you to follow a religion. If you do so, you are destined to "hell"?
[18/12/2014 00:39:07] Sha Mohammed: The idea you have just mentioned is just another 'man made' religion lol. Devoid of evidence or anything to support it.
[18/12/2014 00:39:19] Sha Mohammed: So like all other man made religions I wouldn't even worry about it.
[18/12/2014 00:39:47] Joaquim　勇気 수김: you are aware I am mentally "blank" when it comes to religions.
[18/12/2014 00:39:50] Joaquim　勇気 수김: right?
[18/12/2014 00:40:07] Sha Mohammed: what do you mean mentally blank?
[18/12/2014 00:40:07] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I mean, I just hold a position of curiosity.
[18/12/2014 00:40:15] Sha Mohammed: yeah that's cool.
[18/12/2014 00:40:35] Sha Mohammed: i sympathise with you. its really confusing, but thats because you don not know what i know.
[18/12/2014 00:41:09] Sha Mohammed: btw you do know that muslims believe jesus was a prophet, moses was a prophet and there were many more prophets throughout human history right?
[18/12/2014 00:41:52] Joaquim　勇気 수김: yes, I read something about that
[18/12/2014 00:42:27] Joaquim　勇気 수김: even though I dont know much about prophets, their lifes, etc..etc..
[18/12/2014 00:43:03] Sha Mohammed: well as you can see there 'seems' to be many religions in the world.
[18/12/2014 00:43:16] Joaquim　勇気 수김: millions
[18/12/2014 00:43:26] Sha Mohammed: however actually there has always been 1 main religion.
[18/12/2014 00:43:55] Joaquim　勇気 수김: however, be born in the country where X religion exists, and you'll be automatically converte to that religion.
[18/12/2014 00:44:05] Joaquim　勇気 수김: lol
[18/12/2014 00:44:15] Joaquim　勇気 수김: it's not a matter of choice here.
[18/12/2014 00:44:22] Sha Mohammed: yes you are right.
[18/12/2014 00:45:00] Sha Mohammed: however if somebody had the chance to realise his religion was man made and found something else then changed to it, he wouldn't have been a victim of tradition.
[18/12/2014 00:46:19] Sha Mohammed: you see many religions were created well after the founders were gone. e.g. the first scriptures about buddha were written 300-4-- years after he died. its quite possible he didnt even exist or that the nepalese government later just distorted his original teachings and create a new official story.
[18/12/2014 00:46:43] Sha Mohammed: the same happened with jesus and the evidence supports my claim.
[18/12/2014 00:46:53] Joaquim　勇気 수김: in my opinion, ALL religions are invented.
[18/12/2014 00:47:10] Sha Mohammed: yes, in your opinion, for now let's hope.
[18/12/2014 00:47:40 | Edited 00:47:50] Sha Mohammed: anyway, i say that God sent many prophets throughout human history to teach us how we shoudl live.
[18/12/2014 00:48:07] Sha Mohammed: the prophets performed 'miracles' to authenticate their prophethood.
[18/12/2014 00:48:51] Sha Mohammed: however after the prophets passed away, we(the humans) adulterated and changed the messages to overtime and hence the formation of different religions.
[18/12/2014 00:49:35] Sha Mohammed: however as you can see the main related themese survive in nearly all religions e.g. miracles, heaven and hell, judgement day and so on.
[18/12/2014 00:50:18] Joaquim　勇気 수김: when you look at planet earth...
[18/12/2014 00:50:28] Joaquim　勇気 수김: and see all the things that are happening....
[18/12/2014 00:50:42] Joaquim　勇気 수김: even in your surroundings...
[18/12/2014 00:50:57] Joaquim　勇気 수김: your own surroundings...
[18/12/2014 00:51:14] Joaquim　勇気 수김: haven't you ever thought... you alreay live in HELL?
[18/12/2014 00:54:39] Sha Mohammed: nope because there are many good things in this world e.g. beautiful women, nice food, beautiful mountains, water, etc.
[18/12/2014 00:54:57] Sha Mohammed: Hell will be another extreme, as will heaven.
[18/12/2014 00:55:34] Sha Mohammed: trust me i've experienced so much shit in my life, wanted to suicide at times.
[18/12/2014 00:56:12] Sha Mohammed: but we continue living because theres hope and things to live for. human enjoy living. thats not what hells meant to be like.
[18/12/2014 00:56:38] Sha Mohammed: Being miserable is possible, but hell I don't think so. And being miserable can be fixed.
[18/12/2014 00:57:04] Joaquim　勇気 수김: some humans o not enjoy living life.
[18/12/2014 00:57:22] Sha Mohammed: thats right.
[18/12/2014 00:57:38] Sha Mohammed: like myself who is chronically ill for more than 7 years.
[18/12/2014 00:58:37] Sha Mohammed: however I am actually enjoying my life, because i know that, once its all over and done with, provided i pesevere through it and do what God wants, then ill be in a place that was well worth the tribulation.
[18/12/2014 00:58:55] Sha Mohammed: Actually in Islam(and other monotheistic faiths), life is a TEST.
[18/12/2014 00:59:22] Sha Mohammed: work hard and pass, you will be rewarded later. Fail, then you will suffer.
[18/12/2014 00:59:34] Joaquim　勇気 수김: how is heaven?
[18/12/2014 00:59:41] Joaquim　勇気 수김: what wil you encounter in heaven?
[18/12/2014 00:59:41] Sha Mohammed: You just go to make sure you pesevere and endure through the test.
[18/12/2014 01:00:02 | Edited 01:01:01] Sha Mohammed: would you rather ask how heaven is, after we have discussed the evidence for islam?
[18/12/2014 01:00:34] Sha Mohammed: to take my answers seriously, i think we should. but if youwant to entertain yourself i can give you a description now.
[18/12/2014 01:02:02] Sha Mohammed: in heaven there is no old age or fatigue, everybody is handsome and beautiful, everybody has palaces and gardens, and many other things.
[18/12/2014 01:02:39] Sha Mohammed: all of these are at a degree, that is basically unimaginable to the human mind, or so we are taught in Islam.
[18/12/2014 01:04:48] Joaquim　勇気 수김: palaces are a man made thing though, right?
[18/12/2014 01:05:24] Sha Mohammed: palaces 'that no mind can imagine' are not man made.
[18/12/2014 01:05:55 | Edited 01:06:32] Sha Mohammed: even then, palaces are not man made. god created the materials to make palaces and inspired man to build palaces, they were not of his own doing.
[18/12/2014 01:08:18] Joaquim　勇気 수김: ok
[18/12/2014 01:08:19] Joaquim　勇気 수김: anyway
[18/12/2014 01:08:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: time for me to go revise japanese.
[18/12/2014 01:08:50] Sha Mohammed: a bit late for revision no?
[18/12/2014 01:09:04] Sha Mohammed: or your just a night owl.
[18/12/2014 01:09:13] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I'm a bit of a night owl
[18/12/2014 01:09:24] Joaquim　勇気 수김: things solidify

PLEASE PROCEED TO POST 2/3

[cluoca]

[18/12/2014 18:49:30] Joaquim　勇気 수김: good evening yo you
[18/12/2014 18:50:01] Sha Mohammed: so, does thou wish to continue?
[18/12/2014 18:50:07] Sha Mohammed: I want to do the main course.
[18/12/2014 18:50:49] Joaquim　勇気 수김: yes
[18/12/2014 18:50:51] Joaquim　勇気 수김: explain away
[18/12/2014 18:50:59] Sha Mohammed: is voice chat acceptable?
[18/12/2014 18:51:00] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I'm doing other things though
[18/12/2014 18:51:14] Joaquim　勇気 수김: no, my husband is around doing things.
[18/12/2014 18:51:25] Sha Mohammed: husband???!!!!!!
[18/12/2014 18:51:30] Joaquim　勇気 수김: and is going to bed soon.
[18/12/2014 18:51:35] Sha Mohammed: I thought you were a guy?
[18/12/2014 18:51:42] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I am a man.
[18/12/2014 18:51:59] Sha Mohammed: You are kidding me right?
[18/12/2014 18:52:07] Sha Mohammed: or maybe not.
[18/12/2014 18:52:11] Joaquim　勇気 수김: (think)
[18/12/2014 18:52:26] Sha Mohammed: well it's cool in either case.
[18/12/2014 18:52:31] Joaquim　勇気 수김: why shoul I be kidding... -.-
[18/12/2014 18:53:11] Sha Mohammed: because I many homosexual people might be allergic to a discussion about religion, so i thought maybe he is joking.
[18/12/2014 18:53:11] Joaquim　勇気 수김: if you said to me you are married to a human being, I wouldn't dream of saying you are kidding.
[18/12/2014 18:53:53] Sha Mohammed: but then i suppose a homosexual can be open minded and open hearted and change his behaviours if he believes it is right.
[18/12/2014 18:54:13] Sha Mohammed: Anyway lets continue.
[18/12/2014 18:54:17] Joaquim　勇気 수김: what do you mean behaviours?
[18/12/2014 18:54:50] Sha Mohammed: Well i used to be a womaniser, however after finding religion i changed my ways(behaviours).
[18/12/2014 18:55:07] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I'm not a man eater lol
[18/12/2014 18:55:11] Sha Mohammed: even though i have great urges to be with multiple beautiul women.
[18/12/2014 18:55:27] Joaquim　勇気 수김: go for it, if you like sex and vice
[18/12/2014 18:55:53] Sha Mohammed: So perhaps, if a homosexual realised his should not engage in such a thing, then he would abstain(if there was valid reason for him to do so).
[18/12/2014 18:57:19] Sha Mohammed: Actually would it be acceptable if I sent you a document. 3 pages or so. that will explain the miracle of Muhammed. I expect you will not understand it, however when you criticise it, i will show you your misunderstandings.
[18/12/2014 18:57:25] Sha Mohammed: so want the document?
[18/12/2014 18:57:54] Joaquim　勇気 수김: yes
[18/12/2014 18:58:41] *** ***
[18/12/2014 18:59:44] Sha Mohammed: ok, read it and the bell me and prepare a constructive criticsm. Like I say most people do not understand it first time, they need to discuss to clarify misunderstandings.
[18/12/2014 20:05:48] Joaquim　勇気 수김: so strange...
[18/12/2014 20:05:57] Joaquim　勇気 수김: by the way, are you from Pakistan?
[18/12/2014 20:07:13] Joaquim　勇気 수김: "For example many people in the world have not been to Russia but they believe it exists for a fact."
[18/12/2014 20:07:20] Joaquim　勇気 수김: xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD !!!
[18/12/2014 20:08:05] Joaquim　勇気 수김: "This is because many sources(holiday goers, books, news channels etc) testify to the fact that Russia exists. "
[18/12/2014 20:08:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: lol
[18/12/2014 20:08:49] Joaquim　勇気 수김: this really cracked me up.
[18/12/2014 20:41:00] Sha Mohammed: I don't see why it should crack you up. It's called legitate testimony and applies to many things that YOU have NEVER experienced e.g. the existence of amazonian tribes, the fact that the earth is round. It is ALL based on the say so of others.
[18/12/2014 20:46:28] Sha Mohammed: however the nature of such testimonies logicaly neccesitate truths while logically unverified testimonies do not.
[18/12/2014 20:48:02] Sha Mohammed: No I am not from pakistan. And I am waiting to hear a logical and well thought up answer to the question that every truth seeker should ask, 'Who wrote the Quran?'.
[18/12/2014 21:01:58] Joaquim　勇気 수김: a human being.
[18/12/2014 21:02:28 | Edited 21:03:21] Sha Mohammed: So why can we(humans) not even approach it let alone rival it?
[18/12/2014 21:02:40 | Edited 21:02:53] Sha Mohammed: not even 3 sentences(10 words).
[18/12/2014 21:03:56] Joaquim　勇気 수김: what happens in you argue the qu'ran in Islamic countries?
[18/12/2014 21:04:06] Sha Mohammed: what do you mean?
[18/12/2014 21:05:50] Joaquim　勇気 수김: (or even try to find faults in it)
[18/12/2014 21:05:56] Sha Mohammed: The Qurans inimitability is studied by professors at Ivy league, British, European universities throughout the ages. They also tried to produce 3 sentences like the Quran. Nobody did anything to them. And they openly admit that it is inimitable.
[18/12/2014 21:06:21] Joaquim　勇気 수김: do you think somebody will come forward and do it?
[18/12/2014 21:06:42] Sha Mohammed: MANY HAVE TRIED INCLUDING THE WEST, NONE HAVE SUCEEDED
[18/12/2014 21:06:42] Joaquim　勇気 수김: do you really think so? lol
[18/12/2014 21:07:13] Sha Mohammed: I don't think so, I know so. Didn't you read the section on testimony?
[18/12/2014 21:07:37] Joaquim　勇気 수김: when a person writes a picture of prophet muhammed and whole nations go berserk....
[18/12/2014 21:08:03] Sha Mohammed: Nope. I didn't go beserk. 1.7 billion muslims did not go beserk.
[18/12/2014 21:08:12] Joaquim　勇気 수김: imagine if I person came forward a created 2 sentences like in the quran to just say the whole quric scriptures are rubbish...
[18/12/2014 21:08:43] Joaquim　勇気 수김: personally, even if I could do it, I would come forward and do it.
[18/12/2014 21:08:55] Sha Mohammed: sorry?
[18/12/2014 21:09:18] Joaquim　勇気 수김: would not*
[18/12/2014 21:09:38] Sha Mohammed: well most people would do it, if they could.
[18/12/2014 21:10:16] Joaquim　勇気 수김: these a crazy.... I wouln't like to tell 1.7 billion people that god & the quran is a myth.
[18/12/2014 21:10:18] Sha Mohammed: actually when muhammed came to the poetic civilisation, they tried but failed!
[18/12/2014 21:10:40] Sha Mohammed: Instead they resorted to miltay campaigns to destroy islam.
[18/12/2014 21:10:56] Joaquim　勇気 수김: well, even if it was 100% provable, they'd still keep the belief system.
[18/12/2014 21:11:10] Sha Mohammed: nope. I wouldn't.
[18/12/2014 21:11:36 | Edited 21:12:03] Sha Mohammed: All those Muslims converts including the Once were Non Muslim Arab professors (who converted becaue of the inimtability) wouldn't.
[18/12/2014 21:13:10] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I've noticed that most converts have religious backgrounds....
[18/12/2014 21:13:34] Sha Mohammed: lol you notice what you are exposed to.
[18/12/2014 21:13:55] Joaquim　勇気 수김: also you never hear about the muslim that convert to other religions...
[18/12/2014 21:14:06] Joaquim　勇気 수김: muslims*
[18/12/2014 21:14:09] Sha Mohammed: I know all types of people who have converted including philosiphers et al.
[18/12/2014 21:14:19] Sha Mohammed: of course we do.
[18/12/2014 21:14:49] Sha Mohammed: actually in the west, because they are so few, the media always gives these people voices because the west wants to demonise Islam.
[18/12/2014 21:15:05] Joaquim　勇気 수김: not only islam... lol
[18/12/2014 21:15:22] Sha Mohammed: Ayan Hris Ali et al, these people know squat about Islam, but they're criticising it on TV every other day.
[18/12/2014 21:15:40] Joaquim　勇気 수김: freedom of speech lol
[18/12/2014 21:15:49] Joaquim　勇気 수김: in islamic countries, they'd be dead.
[18/12/2014 21:16:13] Sha Mohammed: but you said we dont hear from them(the muslim leaving islam) but the reality is we hear to much from them.
[18/12/2014 21:16:52] Sha Mohammed: On the other hand we don't hear from the most sophisticated converts to islam, because the media doesn't like that.
[18/12/2014 21:17:38] Sha Mohammed: I'm still waiting to hear a constructive crititque of why nobody can even approach 3 sentences like the Quran. You seem to ignore it and just go all over the place on other things.
[18/12/2014 21:18:09] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I said nobody dares
[18/12/2014 21:18:23] Sha Mohammed: lol
[18/12/2014 21:19:08] Joaquim　勇気 수김: this would be like taking away the drug from a druggie who's been injecting from birth man!
[18/12/2014 21:19:28] Joaquim　勇気 수김: half the world would go mental !!!!
[18/12/2014 21:19:39] Sha Mohammed: history shows many have dared even to the very moment. the works of these people have been examined by non-muslims experts and they have said the attempts are no where near the quran.
[18/12/2014 21:19:52] Joaquim　勇気 수김: what's the verse, by the way?
[18/12/2014 21:19:58] Sha Mohammed: please calm down.
[18/12/2014 21:20:10] Sha Mohammed: lets have a smooth conversation.
[18/12/2014 21:20:17] Joaquim　勇気 수김: show me the verse
[18/12/2014 21:20:55] Sha Mohammed: what you have said: nobody dares, goes against the views of even the western experts of Arabic.
[18/12/2014 21:21:23] Sha Mohammed: Works from the 7th century by the arabs, to challenege the quran, still exist today.
[18/12/2014 21:21:33] Joaquim　勇気 수김: show me the verse.
[18/12/2014 21:21:44] Sha Mohammed: what do you mean the verse?
[18/12/2014 21:22:03] Sha Mohammed: do you mean the shortests chapter?
[18/12/2014 21:22:12] Sha Mohammed: which is 3 verses.
[18/12/2014 21:22:14] Joaquim　勇気 수김: yes
[18/12/2014 21:22:50] Sha Mohammed: http://quran.com/108
[18/12/2014 21:23:55] Sha Mohammed: note: u are reading a crude translation of the arabic, its nothing like the original. also the english text is simple english prose, anybody can write prose.
[18/12/2014 21:24:38] Joaquim　勇気 수김: when you say arabic... what do you mean by "arabic"?
[18/12/2014 21:24:47] Sha Mohammed: the rhymes, rhetorical devices, rhythm etc from the arabic cannot physically be converted.
[18/12/2014 21:24:57] Sha Mohammed: i mean arabic.
[18/12/2014 21:25:00] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I mean, there are so many languages called "arabic"....
[18/12/2014 21:25:32] Sha Mohammed: not really. theres classical arabic, then msa( a highly simplified form of classical).
[18/12/2014 21:25:59] Joaquim　勇気 수김: and who understands classical arabic nowadays other than intellectual arabs?
[18/12/2014 21:26:39] Sha Mohammed: education, academia, media, newpapers all use msa so most people in arab countires know it. Dialects are a different matter but that doesnt stop people from knowing msa.
[18/12/2014 21:26:45] Joaquim　勇気 수김: msa is used for inter-communication: egypt with marroco, or lebanon etc..etc..
[18/12/2014 21:26:58] Joaquim　勇気 수김: dialects? they are different languages!
[18/12/2014 21:27:03] Sha Mohammed: which is exactly what i said.
[18/12/2014 21:27:39] Joaquim　勇気 수김: classical arabic is like saying "latin" (who no one understands other than those intellectuals interested in whatever... lol
[18/12/2014 21:28:11] Joaquim　勇気 수김: even my egyptian friends have a versions of the quran translated into their own "dialects"
[18/12/2014 21:28:21] Sha Mohammed: well many people who know msa can comprehend although they do not understand the deeper issues e.g. rhetoric and so on.
[18/12/2014 21:29:07] Joaquim　勇気 수김: why is it made so incredibly complicated?
[18/12/2014 21:29:11] Sha Mohammed: even then yes, the current masses are not expert in classical arabic but it doesnt matter, many scholars exist in the present day(including western scholars) and we have their testimonies.
[18/12/2014 21:29:21] Sha Mohammed: how is it complicated?
[18/12/2014 21:29:42] Sha Mohammed: and what is your point anyway, please return to the orignal discussion!
[18/12/2014 21:29:54] Sha Mohammed: you said nobody would dare but the facts speak against you.
[18/12/2014 21:31:19] Joaquim　勇気 수김: the whole point is that you are telling me no one has ever created 3 verses, and it is in the quran. Going deeper into the linguistic issues of it, you say "the current masses are not expert in classical arabic but it doesnt matter", so how do you expect somebody to "defy" it when it is not understood in the first place?
[18/12/2014 21:33:05] Sha Mohammed: because it hasnt been done for over 1400 years where the earliest generations were all experts. in addition to that experts have existed and can exist today because the 28 letters, words and rules of the original arabic still exist. people are able to, and have tried even tiday.
[18/12/2014 21:33:30] Sha Mohammed: put simply, if it hasn't been done for over 1400 years, it will never be done.
[18/12/2014 21:33:32] Joaquim　勇気 수김: but... did you say the quran has always remained the same?
[18/12/2014 21:34:01] Sha Mohammed: yes. the earliest and latest qurans are all identical.
[18/12/2014 21:35:01] Joaquim　勇気 수김: and it is so open to interpretations that muslims have create their own "groups"
[18/12/2014 21:35:32] Sha Mohammed: some things are open to interpretation other things(the most important are not).
[18/12/2014 21:35:58] Sha Mohammed: Even so, whats the problem, please come back to the question and debate it intellectually, who wrote the quran.
[18/12/2014 21:36:11] Joaquim　勇気 수김: from hanafi, hanbali to tewelvers...
[18/12/2014 21:36:17] Sha Mohammed: however please provide good and fact based arguments.
[18/12/2014 21:36:38] Sha Mohammed: my friend you are confused, the hanafi, habali...is not even a bad thing lol.
[18/12/2014 21:37:01] Sha Mohammed: the twelvers are shia group however we still consider them muslims.
[18/12/2014 21:37:19] Joaquim　勇気 수김: what is all this about then?
[18/12/2014 21:37:30] Joaquim　勇気 수김: if the quran was clear, these things woul not occur.
[18/12/2014 21:37:33] Sha Mohammed: even if there were some sub groups, what on earth does this have to do with the quran being written by man.
[18/12/2014 21:37:48] Sha Mohammed: please calm down.
[18/12/2014 21:37:52] Joaquim　勇気 수김: nevertheless
[18/12/2014 21:37:54] Sha Mohammed: one thing at a time.
[18/12/2014 21:37:57] Joaquim　勇気 수김: who wrote the quran?
[18/12/2014 21:38:00] Sha Mohammed: one issue at a time.
[18/12/2014 21:39:06] Sha Mohammed: quran is very clear. its humans that deliberately and ignorantly misinterpret the quran and create divisions.
[18/12/2014 21:40:01] Sha Mohammed: yes so who wrote the quran, so far you have given me a baseless, evidence defying, reality defying, western shcolarship defying idea that nobody dared/dare lol.
[18/12/2014 21:40:17] Joaquim　勇気 수김: NO
[18/12/2014 21:40:35] Sha Mohammed: when it has been tried many times and the works are available today. examined and dismissed by western shcolarship.
[18/12/2014 21:40:38] Joaquim　勇気 수김: the whole point is that you are telling me no one has ever created 3 verses, and it is in the quran. Going deeper into the linguistic issues of it, you say "the current masses are not expert in classical arabic but it doesnt matter", so how do you expect somebody to "defy" it when it is not understood in the first place?
[18/12/2014 21:40:58] Sha Mohammed: i already answered that and you seem to ignore it.
[18/12/2014 21:41:22] Joaquim　勇気 수김: no,
[18/12/2014 21:41:41] Joaquim　勇気 수김: you simply responded the question.
[18/12/2014 21:41:51] Sha Mohammed: hasnt been done over 1400 years duh and the earlier generations were experts in classical arabic. Furthmore people(including non muslim experts) are still aquiring the skill today and are still failing.
[18/12/2014 21:42:05] Sha Mohammed: Put the above in your pipe, and smoke it.
[18/12/2014 21:42:28] Joaquim　勇気 수김: lol
[18/12/2014 21:43:05] Joaquim　勇気 수김: seeing that you don't understand me (or maybe I don't understand you?)
[18/12/2014 21:43:20] Joaquim　勇気 수김: please let's proceed, I'm eager to find out.
[18/12/2014 21:43:22] Sha Mohammed: the literal form and devices in human literature can be imitated in minutes. regardless of how genious the author.
[18/12/2014 21:44:27] Sha Mohammed: this is also the case with ALL arabic expressin and literature. EXCEPT for the QUran.
[18/12/2014 21:45:43] Sha Mohammed: Dude man, I thought you were gonna ask some intelligent question but you just seems to go against what your own shcolars are telling you. And you don't acknowledge the nature of the challenge or is history for over 1400 years.
[18/12/2014 21:45:57] Sha Mohammed: tsk tsk i had high hopes for you.
[18/12/2014 21:46:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: how?
[18/12/2014 21:47:02] Sha Mohammed: dude i just explained you fallacies openly but twice but you didnt even respond to those comments.
[18/12/2014 21:47:12] Sha Mohammed: didn't respond at all.
[18/12/2014 21:47:27] Sha Mohammed: am i talking to a brick wall?
[18/12/2014 21:47:48] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I asked questions, you responded them.
[18/12/2014 21:48:22] Sha Mohammed: yes that's right, they were meant to recieve counter arguments but you did not provide, looks like you were unable.
[18/12/2014 21:49:07] Sha Mohammed: Just to confirm you know this is an objective challenge right?
[18/12/2014 21:49:42] Joaquim　勇気 수김: how is this objective in the first place?
[18/12/2014 21:50:13] Sha Mohammed: what a shame. you should have asked me such questions to begin with.
[18/12/2014 21:50:18] Joaquim　勇気 수김: to be objective first I need to know the miracle was real. And accept that.
[18/12/2014 21:50:56] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I cannot accept miracles on the base of blind faith.
[18/12/2014 21:51:11] Sha Mohammed: objective challenege means the challenege can be physically measured.
[18/12/2014 21:51:45] Sha Mohammed: after determining the challenge cannot be met, one must rationally assess it to be a miracle.
[18/12/2014 21:51:53] Sha Mohammed: Do you know what a literal form is?
[18/12/2014 21:51:59] Joaquim　勇気 수김: no
[18/12/2014 21:52:07] Sha Mohammed: Ok watch this:
[18/12/2014 21:52:31] Sha Mohammed: John is a very bad person.(This is a PROSE SENTENCE, it has no rhythm and no rhyme)
[18/12/2014 21:53:14] Sha Mohammed: John ate the bomb(This can be considered a ryhmed prose sentence. John bomb ryhmes but there is no consistant rhythm in the sentence).
[18/12/2014 21:54:21] Sha Mohammed: TWINkle TWINkle LItle STAR. This is a poetic sentence with rhythm. stress/unstressed/stress/unstressed/stress syllables pattern.

[cluoca]

[18/12/2014 21:55:24] Sha Mohammed: Prose, poetry, ryhmed prose etc are literal forms. They are objectively different based on physical features e.g. rhyme, rhythm, non existence of this.
[18/12/2014 21:55:46] Sha Mohammed: There are various types of rhythm e.g. iambic pentameter, trochaic pentameter and so on.
[18/12/2014 21:56:22] Sha Mohammed: In english human expressio falls under these categories and many people can write in these styles.
[18/12/2014 21:57:11] Sha Mohammed: In Arabic we have the following physically objective styles Poetry(Based on 16 rhthms), Prose(STraight prose, Rhymed prose) and Quran.
[18/12/2014 21:58:31] Sha Mohammed: Anything you write in Arabic will be poetry, prose etc but you will never match the lingustic devices used in the quran. it is seperate from Arabic literal forms and has its own literal form.
[18/12/2014 21:59:15] Sha Mohammed: therefore you must write 3 sentences emulating the qurans literal form just as people can emulate poetic forms, prose forms etc. of course none can do it.
[18/12/2014 21:59:59] Sha Mohammed: How unbelievable a book like the Quran does but we cannot even amend words to reach the recreate the same literal form but we can do with all other human expression.
[18/12/2014 22:00:53] Sha Mohammed: do you understand why its an objective challenge now?
[18/12/2014 22:01:35] Joaquim　勇気 수김: (...)
[18/12/2014 22:02:02] Joaquim　勇気 수김: yes, I do.
[18/12/2014 22:02:08] Sha Mohammed: good.
[18/12/2014 22:02:09] Joaquim　勇気 수김: let's say, YES.
[18/12/2014 22:02:33] Sha Mohammed: let me give you another idea about the qurans features.
[18/12/2014 22:02:46] Joaquim　勇気 수김: no, please go straight to the point.
[18/12/2014 22:02:57] Sha Mohammed: Well I need to make you understand right?
[18/12/2014 22:03:09] Sha Mohammed: Look at these sentences:
[18/12/2014 22:03:13] Joaquim　勇気 수김: 2 + 2 = ?
[18/12/2014 22:03:26] Sha Mohammed: 1)You should not believe in religion based on tradition
[18/12/2014 22:03:38] Sha Mohammed: 2)We should not believe in religion based on tradition.
[18/12/2014 22:03:49] Sha Mohammed: Which is the more persuasive sentence?
[18/12/2014 22:04:04] Joaquim　勇気 수김: 1)
[18/12/2014 22:04:40] Sha Mohammed: Actually according to the english language, its 2 as is used by politicians.
[18/12/2014 22:04:58] Sha Mohammed: We is a rhetorical device called 'inclusion'.
[18/12/2014 22:05:01] Joaquim　勇気 수김: it really depends on the mechanics of a person's thinking.
[18/12/2014 22:05:38] Sha Mohammed: in any case its considered 1 rhetorical devices in that sentence.
[18/12/2014 22:05:54] Sha Mohammed: Writers use rhetorical devices to 'please and/or persuade'.
[18/12/2014 22:06:27] Sha Mohammed: Metaphore is another example of rhetorical devices e.g. saying something is likes something. hence novels use it all the time to entertain.
[18/12/2014 22:06:34] Sha Mohammed: New sentence:
[18/12/2014 22:06:45] Sha Mohammed: We should not believe in fairy tales.
[18/12/2014 22:07:09] Sha Mohammed: Objectively this sentences has 7 words and 2 rhetorical devices.
[18/12/2014 22:07:25] Sha Mohammed: Guess how many rhetorical devices in 3 words from the Quran?
[18/12/2014 22:08:18] Sha Mohammed: Quran 3 words = 11 rhetorical devices.
[18/12/2014 22:08:43] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I see
[18/12/2014 22:10:02] Sha Mohammed: And I haven't even discussed the Qurans umatchable rhyming shchmes, non poetic rhythms, non prose features etc etc. When we take all the features into account you get an objective strcture unlike that strcutures used/or producable by human endevours.
[18/12/2014 22:10:14] Sha Mohammed: and that's just the objective aspects.
[18/12/2014 22:10:30] Joaquim　勇気 수김: ok
[18/12/2014 22:11:52] Sha Mohammed: if we take into account the quran subjective beauty e.g. power, beauty, hypnotic effect and so on, well its no wonder the early arabs though it was magic while some said it was superhuman. The combination of objective and subjective features is a speech unlike anyhthing found or objectively matchable in the natural world.
[18/12/2014 22:13:37] Sha Mohammed: if we look at human natura they can always reproduce the literal forms used by other writers, regardless of how smart the writers is. e.g. shakepeare, james joyce, the great Arab poets and so on can be imiatetd with ease. The Quran does not confirm to these carachteristics.
[18/12/2014 22:14:27] Sha Mohammed: The Quran is outside the productive capacity of human since otherwise we would hvave been able to imitate it, but we are powerless at even approaching 3 sentences like it!
[18/12/2014 22:15:02] Joaquim　勇気 수김: ok
[18/12/2014 22:15:55] Sha Mohammed: Rationally, it can be assessed as being of superhuman intelligence i.e. outside the prodcutive capacity of humans. as far as im aware. in the natural world, trees dont talk neither do rocks, this a superhuman entity must be responsible.
[18/12/2014 22:17:07] Joaquim　勇気 수김: ok
[18/12/2014 22:17:15] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I understand
[18/12/2014 22:17:20] Sha Mohammed: Indeed the Quran is a superhuman production and so better explained by attributing it to the author himself, God, the most gracious the most merciful.
[18/12/2014 22:17:23] Sha Mohammed: Good!
[18/12/2014 22:21:01] Sha Mohammed: God is real and his prophets are real. We know the prophets by the miracles the brought.
[18/12/2014 22:22:06] Sha Mohammed: I belive in the miracles of moses, jesus etc because the quran is a miracle and their stories are mentioned in the quran. I believe in judgement day, heaven and hell etc because they are mentioned in the quran. Before you said 'if i see it i will believe it'.
[18/12/2014 22:23:08] Sha Mohammed: In this case you can become a scholars of classical arabic or just rely on the testimony of western and eastern shcolarship to know the quran is inimitable. after that rationally asses and you know muhammed is a true prophet.
[18/12/2014 22:25:25] Joaquim　勇気 수김: have you read another religious books?
[18/12/2014 22:25:30] Sha Mohammed: Next time I will want to hear your contentions and/or deal with many questions you have e.g. views on homosexuality, will all non muslim go to hell, terrorism and son.
[18/12/2014 22:25:37] Sha Mohammed: yes, i read many.
[18/12/2014 22:25:54] Joaquim　勇気 수김: (think)
[18/12/2014 22:26:21] Joaquim　勇気 수김: my personal opinions? or the what the quran says?
[18/12/2014 22:27:15 | Edited 22:27:32] Sha Mohammed: well what the quran says but i will show how its always just and fair, and how you have the wrong understanding(when we include your personal opinions as well).
[18/12/2014 22:27:30] Joaquim　勇気 수김: ok
[18/12/2014 22:27:42] Joaquim　勇気 수김: where do we begin?
[18/12/2014 22:27:56] Sha Mohammed: lol wherever but enough for today.
[18/12/2014 22:28:03] Sha Mohammed: however i will leave you witha present.
[18/12/2014 22:28:50] Sha Mohammed: you don't understand arabic so i don't expect you to be affected by this, reciter depends on person likes/dislikes, but just listen in whatever shape or form you can.
[18/12/2014 22:29:46] Sha Mohammed: this guy is reciting the quran, there is translationa and images give indication of topic e.g. judgement day, what gonna happen, some go to hell, other to heaven, reason for going etc.
[18/12/2014 22:29:49] Sha Mohammed: Enjoy:
[18/12/2014 22:29:52] Sha Mohammed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akeVsK5ZXXw
[18/12/2014 22:31:08] Sha Mohammed: there is many ways to recite quran. here is a slow vocal way called qirat:
[18/12/2014 22:31:11] Sha Mohammed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMG-rCMwhZw
[18/12/2014 22:31:45] Sha Mohammed: Anyway I hope you enjoy and goodbye for now (wave)
[18/12/2014 22:36:46] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I'm sorry, I cannot stand the sound of Arabic. It's one of the ugliest languages I've ever heard.
[18/12/2014 22:36:54] Joaquim　勇気 수김: It really does grate on my ears.
[18/12/2014 22:37:35] Joaquim　勇気 수김: same as Russian and Spanish.
[18/12/2014 22:38:22] Sha Mohammed: ahh! in that case maybe you need to learn it and understand it. it's the emotiveness of the word and style of quranic expression that hypnotises and blows people away.
[18/12/2014 22:39:41] Sha Mohammed: however things like taste and beauty are subjective and not how we determine objective truths.
[18/12/2014 22:40:46 | Edited 22:41:14] Sha Mohammed: did u try the second link? if you wanna try some slow and soft sounding recitations i can find them 4 u. personally i prefer the louder recitations.
[18/12/2014 22:43:53] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I have tried, but I cannot.
[18/12/2014 22:44:06] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I'm sorry I don't like Arabic.
[18/12/2014 22:44:13] Sha Mohammed: ok not to worry.
[18/12/2014 22:45:09] Sha Mohammed: learn the language or let me know if u want the softer stuff.
[18/12/2014 22:53:16] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I have looked at it, and I cannot stand it xD
[18/12/2014 22:54:25] Sha Mohammed: 'looked at it...'. Whats so bad about that girl sitting on the chair reciting her heart out. why can't you stand it?
[18/12/2014 22:55:00] Joaquim　勇気 수김: the language.
[18/12/2014 22:55:06] Joaquim　勇気 수김: It's ugly.
[18/12/2014 22:56:02] Sha Mohammed: maybe on sound, but when you understand the language, at least when you listen to the quran, perhaps it will be a mind blowing experience. we shall see, if you ever choose that route.
[19/12/2014 00:09:31] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I dunno
[21/12/2014 21:10:34] Joaquim　勇気 수김: good evening to you
[21/12/2014 21:11:01] Sha Mohammed: ahh joaquim the great!
[21/12/2014 21:11:17] Sha Mohammed: or are you?
[21/12/2014 21:11:21] Joaquim　勇気 수김: how are you doing?
[21/12/2014 21:11:25] Joaquim　勇気 수김: no, I'm not great.
[21/12/2014 21:11:31] Sha Mohammed: fine thank you, yourself?
[21/12/2014 21:11:51] Sha Mohammed: yeah sorry, it was a rubbish joke.
[21/12/2014 21:12:01] Joaquim　勇気 수김: lol
[21/12/2014 21:13:23] Sha Mohammed: yes, i can't remember where we ended our last discussion.
[21/12/2014 21:14:01] Joaquim　勇気 수김: it's irrelevant
[21/12/2014 21:14:13] Joaquim　勇気 수김: bring up a topic and let's talk about it
[21/12/2014 21:14:26] Joaquim　勇気 수김: what are your thoughts on Richard Dawkins?
[21/12/2014 21:16:37] Sha Mohammed: Well he is an expert in his field like many experts. However being an expert in certain field doesnt mean you have the answers to life.
[21/12/2014 21:18:13] Joaquim　勇気 수김: hahaha we would go back to subjective and objective "morality" as you said it.
[21/12/2014 21:19:05] Sha Mohammed: Not neccessarily. I don't agree with him on many things and not just subjective and objective morality.
[21/12/2014 21:19:24] Sha Mohammed: His argumenst around science, God and related issues are just retarded.
[21/12/2014 21:19:47] Joaquim　勇気 수김: he just goes as far as solidly provable evidence goes....
[21/12/2014 21:21:19 | Edited 21:23:24] Sha Mohammed: exactly. But does he not see that the tangible world may not give us the answer to the first cause? does he not see that maybe this life was a test and maybe we have been created to acknowledge god? does he not recognise the limitation of science amongst other things. Only a fool would restrict himself to such closed thinking.
[21/12/2014 21:22:28] Sha Mohammed: If he says that God(eternal, intelligent, designer etc) did not create everything then he is saying something of a different nature did. That is logic. Of course anything he could postulate would be even more bizarre than a God.
[21/12/2014 21:23:25] Joaquim　勇気 수김: what awaits muslims in heaven?
[21/12/2014 21:23:46 | Edited 21:23:57] Sha Mohammed: Good things of unimaginable degree.
[21/12/2014 21:24:25] Joaquim　勇気 수김: one sec
[21/12/2014 21:32:50] Joaquim　勇気 수김: such as?
[21/12/2014 21:34:57] Sha Mohammed: eternal youth, no ill health, no fatigue, no death, no negative emotions, nothing we negative from the human world exists.
[21/12/2014 21:35:53] Sha Mohammed: everybody will be handsome and beatiful. they will have fruits, food, palaces and gardens, women etc
[21/12/2014 21:36:25] Sha Mohammed: heaven is like a pyramid structure.
[21/12/2014 21:37:04] Sha Mohammed: the best person at the top and the worst at the bottom. each level in the pyramid is better then the previous.
[21/12/2014 21:38:17] Sha Mohammed: therefore everybodys heaven is not the same, it dependson how they lived in this life.
[21/12/2014 21:39:09] Sha Mohammed: also people have different tastes, so each persons heaven is catered for him. Only God knows what's there.
[21/12/2014 21:40:17] Sha Mohammed: people will not urinate or go to the toilets, there digestive system will eliminate by a sweet fragrance emitting from their bodies.
[21/12/2014 21:40:50] Sha Mohammed: Now if God can create this world, then he can certainly create that.
[21/12/2014 21:41:58] Joaquim　勇気 수김: you see
[21/12/2014 21:42:03] Joaquim　勇気 수김: In my mind
[21/12/2014 21:44:02] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I see life like a learning process
[21/12/2014 21:45:04] Joaquim　勇気 수김: life repeats itself on different worlds and galaxies in order to learn a type of behaviour pure from destructive emotions.
[21/12/2014 21:45:23] Joaquim　勇気 수김: *free
[21/12/2014 21:45:47] Sha Mohammed: well your idea(religion) is a man made creation completely lacking any evidence.
[21/12/2014 21:46:03] Joaquim　勇気 수김: lacking evidence?
[21/12/2014 21:46:26] Sha Mohammed: yes. 'life repeating itself on different worlds and galaxies...'
[21/12/2014 21:46:34] Sha Mohammed: where do you see that hapening?
[21/12/2014 21:46:55] Joaquim　勇気 수김: there are people on earth that remember their past life
[21/12/2014 21:47:10] Sha Mohammed: nope they don't.
[21/12/2014 21:47:35] Sha Mohammed: this has to be proven to be the case and there is no proof.
[21/12/2014 21:47:35] Joaquim　勇気 수김: flashbacks come to them like thunders, they can tell with all sort of details the aspects of life they expierenced in X place on earth.
[21/12/2014 21:47:59] Joaquim　勇気 수김: it is real.
[21/12/2014 21:48:15] Sha Mohammed: yes and people like said baba also does miracle, and benny hin heals illnesses, and certain gurus are reincarnations of other gururs etc.
[21/12/2014 21:48:30] Sha Mohammed: It is real? Please provide the evidence.
[21/12/2014 21:49:09] Sha Mohammed: Not just this person said so or it seems to be the case. Such frauds have been exposed time and time again and these people are SICK.
[21/12/2014 21:49:21] Sha Mohammed: trust me you do not know the power of acting.
[21/12/2014 21:49:37] Joaquim　勇気 수김: ...
[21/12/2014 21:50:02] Joaquim　勇気 수김: how do you explain that these stories are not made public?
[21/12/2014 21:50:26] Sha Mohammed: lol because they are bullshit.
[21/12/2014 21:50:36] Sha Mohammed: Anybody can make a story up.
[21/12/2014 21:51:47 | Edited 21:52:16] Sha Mohammed: I can tell person x the life story of person y and tell him to pretend he lived that life. The secular capitalist world actually loves religions like buddhusm so they would endorse it and promote such stories. They don't. because there's no evidence for it so nobodies going to believe it.
[21/12/2014 21:52:30] Joaquim　勇気 수김: can we say the same about world religious bodies?
[21/12/2014 21:52:43] Sha Mohammed: yes and no.
[21/12/2014 21:52:59] Joaquim　勇気 수김: at least religion is a good tool to control and manipulate people...
[21/12/2014 21:53:25] Sha Mohammed: so is drugs, pop music, nationalism and many other things.
[21/12/2014 21:54:04] Sha Mohammed: we should be interested in only whats true and not whats can be used to control people. It's whats controlling the people that matters and if it's true.
[21/12/2014 21:54:51] Sha Mohammed: Islam is not man made(evidenced by superhuman speech) in the Quran(Something which you brought no valid contentions for).
[21/12/2014 21:55:41] Sha Mohammed: As I say Jesus, Moses and many other were real prophets of God but there messages have been lost and changed by men over time. Therefore the modern versions are corrupt. At the same time some religions are purely man made.
[21/12/2014 21:55:45] Joaquim　勇気 수김: It is man made !!
[21/12/2014 21:56:05] Sha Mohammed: Please bring me 3 sentences like the quran then tell me its man made.
[21/12/2014 21:56:31] Sha Mohammed: If the quran was inside our capacity, then we would be able to emulate its literal form but we cannot.
[21/12/2014 21:56:51] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I'll have to learn the particular arabic dialect that in the time of prophet mohammed lived and spoke in the first place.........
[21/12/2014 21:56:54] Sha Mohammed: Quran came from a superhuman being(God) to Muhammed via an angel.
[21/12/2014 21:57:13] Joaquim　勇気 수김: and that no one speaks.
[21/12/2014 21:57:25] Sha Mohammed: the classical arabic is alive today and still taught.
[21/12/2014 21:57:55] Sha Mohammed: I keep saying that it existed at Muhammeds time, generations after and althouh not in use today, easily accesible.
[21/12/2014 21:58:18] Sha Mohammed: so i dont know what your issue is. if we could imitate it, it would have been done today.
[21/12/2014 21:58:39] Joaquim　勇気 수김: so I'll have to learn this particular classical dialect, and then do it.
[21/12/2014 21:58:47] Sha Mohamm
[21/12/2014 22:01:18] Sha Mohammed: Many NON-MUSLIM shcolars at the most prestigous universities e.g. american, british, european have dedicated their life to Arabic and even tried to imiatet the Quran, but all have failed and affirm it is INIMITABLE.
[21/12/2014 22:02:14] Sha Mohammed: There are many like you who have already learnt the classical arabic, tried and compared the works, they confirm nothing comes close to it.
[21/12/2014 22:02:23] Joaquim　勇気 수김: if you tell me the world is a ball, there's evidence to confirm that.
[21/12/2014 22:02:31] Sha Mohammed: exactly.
[21/12/2014 22:03:23] Joaquim　勇気 수김: if the quran is real... do you think it's been heavily changed?
[21/12/2014 22:03:39] Joaquim　勇気 수김: through translations, through interpretations, etc..etc..
[21/12/2014 22:03:57] Sha Mohammed: the world is a ball because scientists 'said' they have gone into space or satellites in space have taken pictures. still the interpretation of evidence is based on the say so of scientists , not you experience.
[21/12/2014 22:04:40] Sha Mohammed: the quran being inimitable is based on the consensus of Arabic experts the globe over, all of whom have experienced the physical inimitability of the quran.
[21/12/2014 22:05:33] Sha Mohammed: the quran has not been changed at all. The earliest quran from those living at the time of the prophet compared to the books today, are exactly the same.
[21/12/2014 22:05:51] Joaquim　勇気 수김: but if you want to follow islam correctly, you should learn classical arabic to interpret the word of god accurately.. right?
[21/12/2014 22:06:23] Sha Mohammed: if you want to be a doctor then you you must do the neccesary training of that post.
[21/12/2014 22:06:51] Sha Mohammed: If you want to be a good muslim, to fulfill that post you do not have to be a expert in classical arabic.
[21/12/2014 22:07:07] Sha Mohammed: however if you want to be a shcolar/professor then you have the choice to do so.
[21/12/2014 22:07:35] Joaquim　勇気 수김: then it is ok to use a translated version?
[21/12/2014 22:07:52] Sha Mohammed: Many muslim don't speak arabic and choose not to/cant afford to, but so long as they pray, fast, do good deeds etc they can still go to heaven.
[21/12/2014 22:08:08] Sha Mohammed: you can use a translated version JUST TO GET AN IDEA OF THE THEMES.
[21/12/2014 22:09:06] Sha Mohammed: However you must realise translations are not the original , hence loose details, meanings and so much more.
[21/12/2014 22:09:25] Sha Mohammed: therefore the translation is just to get an idea about the themes.
[21/12/2014 22:09:53] Sha Mohammed: However I recommend all muslims to learn teh arabic since once they do, their belief wiill be concrete as rock.
[21/12/2014 22:10:54] Joaquim　勇気 수김: hahahhaha
[21/12/2014 22:11:10] Sha Mohammed: what so funny?
[21/12/2014 22:12:32] Sha Mohammed: im one of those people thar was curious and chose to learn the arabic, and my belief is indeed concrete as rock.
[21/12/2014 22:13:05] Joaquim　勇気 수김: the whole thing is interesting.
[21/12/2014 22:14:00] Joaquim　勇気 수김: by the way
[21/12/2014 22:14:08] Joaquim　勇気 수김: tell me about muslim weddings
[21/12/2014 22:14:29] Sha Mohammed: btw i should give you references, and you should check them. the references for the qurans inimitability is extensive and established amongst scholars(east and west). indeed some non-muslim professors converted as a result of the challenge.
[21/12/2014 22:14:56] Sha Mohammed: let me give you references first, then we return to other questoins...
[21/12/2014 22:15:01] Joaquim　勇気 수김: but... christians tell me exactly the same...
[21/12/2014 22:15:15] Sha Mohammed: no they don't.
[21/12/2014 22:15:50] Sha Mohammed: they tell you the bible has superhuman speech, evidenced by a measurable literal form that nobody can imiate? lol of course they don't.
[21/12/2014 22:16:07 | Edited 22:16:18] Sha Mohammed: the bible is written in prose and we are writing prose right now!(imitaion/emulation).
[21/12/2014 22:16:45] Joaquim　勇気 수김: oh crap that contact actually deleted me lol I'd show you the conversation
[21/12/2014 22:16:54] Joaquim　勇気 수김: she said something similar to what you say
[21/12/2014 22:17:30] Sha Mohammed: well i know they say no such thing.
[21/12/2014 22:17:45] Sha Mohammed: if you spoke to a madman then you spoke to a madman.
[21/12/2014 22:19:03] Sha Mohammed: if somebody says to you the 'meaning' in the bible could only have come from God. Well thats a matter of subjective opinion and not something that can be measured. The quran, through its literal devices and lingusitic features be 'measured' to be unque and hence different to human speech. while all human speech can be imiated.
[21/12/2014 22:20:34 | Edited 22:21:14] Sha Mohammed: Oliver Leaman: "the verses of the Qur'an represent its uniqueness and beauty not to mention its novelty and originality. That is why it has succeeded in convincing so many people of its truth. IT IMITATES NOTHING NOR CAN IT BE IMITATED. Its style does not pall even after long periods of study and the text does not lose its freshness over time" Leaman, Oliver (2006). The Qur'an: an Encyclopedia.p.404
[21/12/2014 22:21:25] Joaquim　勇気 수김: tell me about muslim weddings.
[21/12/2014 22:21:39] Sha Mohammed: wait let me give you a few references then ill do that.
[21/12/2014 22:23:46] Sha Mohammed: Its ideas, its language, its rhymes pervade all subsequent literary works in greater or lesser measure. ITS SPECIFIC LINGUISTIC FEATURES WERE NOT EMULATED, either in the chancery prose of the next century or in the later prose writings, but it was at least partly due to the flexibility imparted by the Koran to the High Arabic idiom that the former could be so rapidly developed and adjusted to the new needs of the imperial government and an expanding society. H A R Gibb, Arabic Literature - An Introduction, 1963, Oxford at Clarendon Press, p. 36.
[21/12/2014 22:25:21] Sha Mohammed: The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. Many Christian Arabs speak of its style with warm admiration, and most Arabists acknowledge its excellence. When it is read aloud or recited it has an almost hypnotic effect that makes the listener indifferent to its sometimes strange syntax and its sometimes, to us, repellent content. It is this quality it possesses of silencing criticism by the sweet music of its language that has given birth to the dogma of its inimitability; indeed it may be affirmed that within the literature of the Arabs, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, THERE IS NOTHING TO COMPARE WIT IT. Alfred Guillaume, Islam, 1990 (Reprinted), Penguin Books, pp. 73-74.
[21/12/2014 22:26:31] Joaquim　勇気 수김: The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss.
[21/12/2014 22:26:35] Joaquim　勇気 수김: :O:O:O
[21/12/2014 22:26:42] Sha Mohammed: ill stop here but you you should check the credentials of these people. i can give you extensive references from old scholars and new scholars in the current day.
[21/12/2014 22:27:13] Sha Mohammed: yes, as I told you you cannot translate it without loosing the meaning.
[21/12/2014 22:27:43] Sha Mohammed: So whats the suprised smilie for?
[21/12/2014 22:28:56] Joaquim　勇気 수김: no comments
[21/12/2014 22:29:06] Sha Mohammed: sorry?
[21/12/2014 22:29:15] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I don't want to go around in circles
[21/12/2014 22:29:42] Sha Mohammed: ah well if there is a problem you shoudl say it.
[21/12/2014 22:30:11] Sha Mohammed: and u shoudl not assume we will go around in circles. what arrogance.
[21/12/2014 22:30:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: you tell me a lot of meaning in teh quran is lost in the translation process.
[21/12/2014 22:30:40] Sha Mohammed: that's right.
[21/12/2014 22:31:18] Joaquim　勇気 수김: are you implying that half the muslim population are following a religion which a very superficial idea of it?
[21/12/2014 22:31:29] Sha Mohammed: No.
[21/12/2014 22:31:51] Sha Mohammed: Becuase the main idea are simple and everybody understands it.
[21/12/2014 22:32:17] Sha Mohammed: e.g. worship one god, do not worship idols, give charity, be just, pray, etc etc.
[21/12/2014 22:32:30] Joaquim　勇気 수김: is that the reason there are so many branches of islam?
[21/12/2014 22:32:36] Sha Mohammed: even a translated one or discussion with muslim gets these ed: not even that.
[21/12/2014 21:59:09] Sha Mohammed: remember what i told you about legitimate testimony?
[21/12/2014 22:00:09] Sha Mohammed: i.e. confirm the world being round through scientists or teh amzaonian tribes through researchers. We didn't experience but we accept the testimony of logically unrelated and unanimous studies.
[21/12/2014 22:01:05] Joaquim　勇気 수김: no I don't.
idea across.
[21/12/2014 22:33:49] Sha Mohammed: what his referring to is the fact that the awesome communicatoin, depth of expresson, rhetroic etc cannot be tranlsated over.
[21/12/2014 22:34:24] Sha Mohammed: tranlsating 10 words properly can require pages in another langauge.
[21/12/2014 22:34:48] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I don't buy into that...
[21/12/2014 22:34:57] Sha Mohammed: however the message is clear throughout the quran and thats whats important.
[21/12/2014 22:35:22] Sha Mohammed: you don't buy it, well since your not an expert, you should listen to what your experts say.
[21/12/2014 22:35:48] Joaquim　勇気 수김: the thing is, they don't make sense to me.
[21/12/2014 22:35:50] Sha Mohammed: In addition to the rhymes, rhytm and rhetoric...some experts say 80% of the meaning is lost.
[21/12/2014 22:36:04] Sha Mohammed: its not meant to make sense, its a miracle.
[21/12/2014 22:36:24] Joaquim　勇気 수김: so you have to accept it as such.
[21/12/2014 22:36:44] Sha Mohammed: expressing the qurans ideas even in noraml arabic requires much more writing.
[21/12/2014 22:37:27] Sha Mohammed: Yes, in the same way you accept the existence of the amazonian tribes or other that the world is round etc.
[21/12/2014 22:37:53] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I don't accept that
[21/12/2014 22:38:19] Sha Mohammed: well then, perhaps you dont belive the world is round or the amazonian tribes exist.
[21/12/2014 22:38:24] Joaquim　勇気 수김: you get the concept completely wrong
[21/12/2014 22:38:42] Sha Mohammed: nope it's called legitimate testimony and i thnk its quite right.
[21/12/2014 22:39:25] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I may accept the world is round because I've seen pictures of it, an loooots of testimonies have talked about it blablabla...
[21/12/2014 22:40:11] Sha Mohammed: yep but who told youthose pictures are real and they are definately take from out of space. it is based on the say so of others.
[21/12/2014 22:40:15] Joaquim　勇気 수김: but again, the most honest answer would be "I don't know"
[21/12/2014 22:40:44] Sha Mohammed: yes there are loooooots of testimnoies of it. And so are there loooooots of testimonies on the qurans inimitabiliy. like i said it's extensive.
[21/12/2014 22:40:48] Joaquim　勇気 수김: it could actually be all a lie lol
[21/12/2014 22:41:42] Sha Mohammed: to call it a lie would be a ridiculous conspiracy theory which you yourself dont believe in, so why even waste time debating it.
[21/12/2014 22:43:13] Sha Mohammed: i provided you three references, and i can provide many many more.
[21/12/2014 22:45:31] Joaquim　勇気 수김: when you go to a foreign country...
[21/12/2014 22:45:40] Joaquim　勇気 수김: you don't speak the language of that country...
[21/12/2014 22:45:49] Joaquim　勇気 수김: how does it feel to you?
[21/12/2014 22:46:09] Sha Mohammed: well in my case if i was there for long i'd learn it.
[21/12/2014 22:46:19] Sha Mohammed: if it was that important i'd do that.
[21/12/2014 22:46:41] Joaquim　勇気 수김: would you enjoy their culture much more if you didn't learn the language?
[21/12/2014 22:46:45] Sha Mohammed: and i'd be open minded and not feel negative because, different languages, cultures and colours are a blessing from God.
[21/12/2014 22:47:01] Joaquim　勇気 수김: anyway
[21/12/2014 22:47:03] Sha Mohammed: if its worth it better to learn the language yes.
[21/12/2014 22:47:23] Joaquim　勇気 수김: tell me about muslim weddings
[21/12/2014 22:47:33] Sha Mohammed: if its not worth it, better be happy about the fact thats there more cultures and languages otherwise we'd be boring world.
[21/12/2014 22:47:41] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I presume you are married, how was your marriage celebrated?
[21/12/2014 22:47:46] Sha Mohammed: ah muslim weddings!
[21/12/2014 22:47:59] Joaquim　勇気 수김: was it an arranged marriage?
[21/12/2014 22:48:10] Sha Mohammed: well suprised you maybe, I am not married.
[21/12/2014 22:48:24] Joaquim　勇気 수김: :O:O:O:O !!!!
[21/12/2014 22:49:24] Sha Mohammed: Arranged marriages in Islam means that people get introduced to others as potential macthes. It does not mean the other party MUST accept the proposal.
[21/12/2014 22:49:39] Joaquim　勇気 수김: obviously lol
[21/12/2014 22:49:45] Sha Mohammed: the second idea is forced marriage which is not allowed in islam.
[21/12/2014 22:50:00] Joaquim　勇気 수김: my sister lives in Saudi Arabia....
[21/12/2014 22:50:05 | Edited 22:50:22] Sha Mohammed: if the girl or boy says no, that's their choice. In fact they do not need to marry at all! if they so choose.
[21/12/2014 22:51:33] Joaquim　勇気 수김: her husband is an engineer placed there for 3 years on some sort of project..
[21/12/2014 22:52:14] Sha Mohammed: muslims from the subcontiant tend to have extravagent marriages however that is their choice and based on subcontinant culture. Islamically the minimum requirements is a verbal contract(nikah), paying a dowry(acceptable gift) to bride and 4 witnesses. It can be a tiny, inexpensive wedding or worth millions. its your choice, but the minimum is enough.
[21/12/2014 22:52:50] Joaquim　勇気 수김: so she tells me things about it...
[21/12/2014 22:53:15] Sha Mohammed: yes, some muslim stick to tribal cultures rather than the right islam actuallly gives.
[21/12/2014 22:53:54] Sha Mohammed: bad muslim can do 'honour' killings, rape, steal, theft, forced marriages etc, however these have nothing to do with islam.
[21/12/2014 22:54:27] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I'd love to go there, but apparently it is hard to get into the country since you need a certificate or something like that she said..
[21/12/2014 22:54:36] Sha Mohammed: ok
[21/12/2014 22:55:25 | Edited 22:55:41] Sha Mohammed: the saudi face mask for example has nothing to do with islam. them crazy wahabis(british agents) who control the government, imposed it. every other muslim country nobody even cares.
[21/12/2014 22:56:22] Sha Mohammed: oh yes we were gonna talk about homosexuality rigt?
[21/12/2014 22:56:49] Joaquim　勇気 수김: huh? what is there to talk about it?
[21/12/2014 22:57:01] Joaquim　勇気 수김: what about heterosexuality?
[21/12/2014 22:57:29] Sha Mohammed: well obviously you know its not permitted in islam, but the question is how should it be viewed?
[21/12/2014 22:57:42] Joaquim　勇気 수김: under Islam?
[21/12/2014 22:57:43] Sha Mohammed: or how would i view YOU for example.
[21/12/2014 22:57:46] Sha Mohammed: yes.
[21/12/2014 22 Joaquim　勇気 수김: Personally, under Islam, I would say:
[21/12/2014 23:02:04 | Edited 23:02:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: 1) Repress your feelings of love towards your same gender, live an unhappy and unfulfilled life with a woman you hate to the core an feel disgusted by, lie lie lie lie to please others and live a fake life until the day of your death. Or leave the faith.
[21/12/2014 23:02:27] Sha Mohammed: nope, that is a completely false representation.
[21/12/2014 23:04:33] Sha Mohammed: God creates people and gives them tests. Just because im a horny male who likes women doesnt give me the right to sleept with or use as many women for sex as i want. Just because I like you car, doesnt give me a right to drive it. Just because someone is ill doesn't give them a right to say they don't have to pray...etc
[21/12/2014 23:04:59] Sha Mohammed: so just becuase someone may have sexial attraction to the same gender doesnt mean they should have homosexual relations.
[21/12/2014 23:05:08] Joaquim　勇気 수김: 2) Live your life as you believe is true to yourself, study the quran and try to convice people that there are flaws in the interpretation of whatever verses that abhor homosexuality. Marry the love of your life the muslim way with an imam that understands you an only god at the end will judge you.
[21/12/2014 23:06:37] Sha Mohammed: God gave this to you as a test to see if you will pesevere and come close to him. So pesevere, if you dont want to marry, then dont marry, you said be 'unhappy' but really you should be happy because you are following God commands and will eventually go to heaven. Everybody has to struggle in life.
[21/12/2014 23:07:44] Joaquim　勇気 수김: so just becuase someone may have sexial attraction to the same gender doesnt mean they should have homosexual relations.what has sex to do with all of this?
[21/12/2014 23:07:51] Sha Mohammed: If on the other hand you decide to pursue men, then you will definately be 'unhappy' cos you know that on judgement day you will be judged for you lust, disobeying of God, impatience etc. Being in that position is to be unhappy.
[21/12/2014 23:08:33 | Edited 23:08:54] Sha Mohammed: sex, feelings whatever. you are not allowed to marry other men, steal, swear, kill, etc etc. Regardless of how bad you urge. God will judge you after you die my friend.
[21/12/2014 23:09:28] Joaquim　勇気 수김: (facepalm) I am afraid this is something you should talk to with other muslims..
[21/12/2014 23:10:12] Joaquim　勇気 수김: people that follow your faith...
[21/12/2014 23:10:24] Sha Mohammed: yes.
[21/12/2014 23:10:45] Sha Mohammed: you are right.
[21/12/2014 23:10:55] Sha Mohammed: which remind me to tell you something.
[21/12/2014 23:11:18] Sha Mohammed: Sometimes people think Islam says 'all non-muslims will go to hell'.
[21/12/2014 23:11:23] Sha Mohammed: however this is not true.
[21/12/2014 23:11:35] Sha Mohammed: there is 3 categories of people in Islam.
[21/12/2014 23:12:07] Sha Mohammed: 1)Muslims, they will go straight to or eventually go to heaven.
[21/12/2014 23:12:48] Sha Mohammed: 2) Kafir(Those in denial) These are people who recieved adequat knowledge about Islam and then rejected it i.e. they know its truth but were in denial.
[21/12/2014 23:14:37 | Edited 23:15:21] Sha Mohammed: 3) People who did not recieved adequate or may have recieved even flase information. Perhaps people such as the millions in japan, nobody is teaching them so they have no real chance to learn or convert to islam. in their case, after they die, god will judge them and be fair. they will not neccesarily go to hell, they may even go to heaven depending on gods judgement. it depends on various factors.
[21/12/2014 23:15:26] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I see....
[21/12/2014 23:16:00] Sha Mohammed: therefore the 1st category goes to heaven, 2nd to hell, 3rd depends. so all non muslims will not neccasarily go to hell.
[21/12/2014 23:16:04] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I find the concept hell/heaven too hard to fathom to be honest...
[21/12/2014 23:17:14] Joaquim　勇気 수김: my inteligence is too low to understand the concept.
[21/12/2014 23:17:55] Sha Mohammed: However when a non muslim discovers its truth they are expected to free themselevs from tradition, detnial, personal desires etc. In your case, you have been taught about God, prophes, heaven and hell, the miracle of the quran etc so you may fall into category 2?
[21/12/2014 23:18:29] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I don't understand the concepts.
[21/12/2014 23:18:50] Sha Mohammed: if u now deny God and his prophet, despite the message and evidence that came to you(miracle of quran) etc, then your judgement could be bad.
[21/12/2014 23:18:55] Sha Mohammed: They're easy to understand.
[21/12/2014 23:19:21] Joaquim　勇気 수김: oh yes, that's why so many people have studied and restudied and done god know how many things...
[21/12/2014 23:20:15] Joaquim　勇気 수김: Im off to bed.
[21/12/2014 23:20:20] Sha Mohammed: if you do a crime in this world, depending on severeity, you can get slap on the wrist, fine or go to prison(punishment). If youve been good you can get job etc.
[21/12/2014 23:21:02] *** Joaquim　勇気 수김 blocked Sha Mohammed ***
[21/12/2014 23:21:30] Sha Mohammed: same with heaven and hell. Be good and go to heaven(great reward, be bad and get your punishment(go to hell). It will be your fault for denying the quran(gods message to you which you ignored).
[21/12/2014 23:22:30] Sha Mohammed: i hope my message has been clear to you. And i hope you seek God, have an open mind, contenplate the quran and come towards God. If you don't, well, it will be your funeral at the end of the day.
[21/12/2014 23:22:37] Sha Mohammed: Anyway good night!
[21/12/2014 23:22:42] Joaquim　勇気 수김: hello?
[21/12/2014 23:23:08] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I don't like what you say.
[21/12/2014 23:23:15] Sha Mohammed: is it not fair?
[21/12/2014 23:23:57] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I've got too many questions
[21/12/2014 23:24:15] Sha Mohammed: ok ill answers those next time.
[21/12/2014 23:24:20] Joaquim　勇気 수김: ok
[21/12/2014 23:24:20] Sha Mohammed: good night for now.
[21/12/2014 23:24:25] Joaquim　勇気 수김: good night
[21/12/2014 23:28:37] Sha Mohammed: Regarding 'past experiences' and other apparent 'truths'. Be wary of teh great deceptions in the world e.g. the various fradsters, they come in all shapes, sizes and types:
[21/12/2014 23:28:40] Sha Mohammed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWiWpxMN-qY
[21/12/2014 23:29:39] Sha Mohammed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVG1x-rh6FE
[21/12/2014 23:32:20 | Edited 23:34:36] Sha Mohammed: The so called miracle and other experiences have been investigated and never verified to be truth, people dont bother with it because the educated know its bullshit. trust me, your religion of rebirth(similar to buddhism) is based on nothing. Not only can anyody make this shit up, It can it is also logically flase because it presumes an infinite past set of rebirths, something which logically wouldn't make sense and hence does not explain the first cell to begin with.
[21/12/2014 23:40:43] Joaquim　勇気 수김: I guess Ill have to learn classical arabic and find out if it is true...
[21/12/2014 23:41:15] Joaquim　勇気 수김: this is all for today
[21/12/2014 23:41:20] Joaquim　勇気 수김: good night
[21/12/2014 23:42:34] Sha Mohammed: haha if you understood the concept of testimony, then you'd free yourself a lot of work. but if you learn it, thats up to you. lets just hope you have the will power and the angel of death doesnt come to you before you complete several years of study.
[21/12/2014 23:42:48] Joaquim　勇気 수김: ok
[21/12/2014 23:42:53] Joaquim　勇気 수김: good night
[21/12/2014 23:43:16] Sha Mohammed: btw past experience can also be related to halucnations, dreams, and even possession.
[21/12/2014 23:43:25] Sha Mohammed: anyway good night lets talk another day.
[21/12/2014 23:43:35] Joaquim　勇気 수김: can we change the topic if we are not going to bed? lol
[21/12/2014 23:43:59] Sha Mohammed: its ok lets leave it at that.

My questions related to this are:

1- How do you explain the uniqueness of the qu'ran in terms of verse and prose as the muslim man mentions?
2- Is it really true no-one on earth has ever been able to imitate it?
3- Am I really right about what I responded to him? If no human being has been able to imitate the poetic structure (over hundreds of years, lots of intellectuals/linguists have attempted, etc..), who did it really?
4- What technique (in the psycology field) has he tried to set up on me?

I really look forward to your responses/thoughts on this conversation.

[TheVeganAtheist]

Please contain all the comments into one thread rather then start 3 distinct posts.

[cluoca]

Hello veganathiest,

I have tried to to contain all the information on one unique post, however there is a 60000 word limit for each post. I couldn't think of any other way to put it all together. My apologies ;(

[brimstoneSalad]

Hello veganathiest,

I have tried to to contain all the information on one unique post, however there is a 60000 word limit for each post. I couldn't think of any other way to put it all together. My apologies ;(

Hi, and welcome cluoca!

In these situations, just view and then reply to your own post with the continuation. Don't worry about it, now you know for next time.

[brimstoneSalad]

Eh, sorry, I couldn't read it all, but these are standard arguments from Muslims (I've heard many times), so, I know what you're asking and I can answer. Although anybody who hasn't had discussions with these kinds of Muslims should probably read, since this seems like a pretty good summary.

1- How do you explain the uniqueness of the qu'ran in terms of verse and prose as the muslim man mentions?

Every author, language, culture, and era in history has unique usage in terms of style, verse, prose, etc.
The CIA use writing as a kind of fingerprint, and can identify people based on an otherwise anonymous sample of text; scary huh?

This isn't an unusual claim. It's downright trivial.

You can't produce writing like I do either; that is, unless you study carefully and meticulously copy my style and word usage.

2- Is it really true no-one on earth has ever been able to imitate it?

It's more that very few people care to. It's not that special, other than the sense that "everybody is special". However, creating a forgery is no small task. Even imitating Shakespeare to the point a scholar would be fooled into thinking it was a lost original work would take quite a bit of study in the language and poetry.
And that's modern English.

When we're talking about older forms of language that are rooted in cultures that no longer exist (have changed to the point they're no longer recognizable or mutually intelligible) it's a more difficult task.

Islamic scholars, who COULD easily imitate it, have been convinced that they cannot because the Qur'an tells them they can't.
And for them, it's a moving goal post; they'd never accept an imitation, because they know the Qur'an and could spot it for merely being different.

That said, MANY people have imitated it just for the hell of it, because somebody said they couldn't.

http://suralikeit.com/

And because some people can't help but stand up to bullshit arguments.

3- Am I really right about what I responded to him? If no human being has been able to imitate the poetic structure (over hundreds of years, lots of intellectuals/linguists have attempted, etc..), who did it really?

Not really.

It's much easier to create an arbitrary structure than to copy it; since the creation is the product of the language and individual coming up with the words.

Anyway, the correct response is to call bullshit on that, because it's not that difficult. It takes study, but replicating the poetic structure once you understand it and have a strong grasp of the language and cultural context is a minor task.

4- What technique (in the psycology field) has he tried to set up on me?

Muslims usually use a process of rapid fire false facts, egregiously false facts, so wrong that it's hard to believe they would make those arguments if they weren't true -- so they must be true, right, since it would be so easy to check? Nope, all bullshit.

And they throw them at you so fast, you don't have time to fact check and make rebuttals.

It's a rhetoric and debate tactic. Basically just tiring out the opponent. If one person can just say anything as fast as he or she wants, and the other is stuck doing research, who gets more words out to persuade the audience?

Christian apologists usually stick more to one central argument with logical fallacies (the same dead horses they've been beating for centuries) that you can spot and identify without research, and then address there and then.
Muslims make you work for it, by just dealing in false facts to tire you out and avoiding logical arguments.

Very different strategy, which needs a very different response.