Jebus wrote: A person who turns to a vegan diet for health reasons is already a selfish person and I don't believe he or she is much closer to becoming vegan than a full on carnivore.
I don't think it's justified to judge someone because they are taking a different route into veganism than you are. You might call personal health reasons selfish, but they're damn good ones at that. Health is not always personal though, I myself became very passionate about the vegan diet because I saw how much people suffered of diet related diseases.
Although dietary vegans might be ignorant to the environmental and ethical aspects of veganism, that doesn't make them selfish. It just makes them ignorant. It is hard to make the connection between meat and the animal behind it. Dairy is even worse, marketing sketched this picture of a happy cow on a bright farm where the cows are treated like queens, that the animals suffer in the process is not clear.
Once you tell a dietary vegan about the ethical and environmental aspects and they reject it and continue to buy leather and wool, then sure, call them selfish. Until then, I don't think you should be jumping to any conclusions.
"I advocate infinite effort on behalf of very finite goals, for example correcting this guy's grammar."
- David Frum
Jebus wrote: A person who turns to a vegan diet for health reasons is already a selfish person and I don't believe he or she is much closer to becoming vegan than a full on carnivore.
Read about cognitive dissonance, then re-read my posts. If you don't understand after that, let me know and I'll explain in more detail.
miniboes wrote:
Although dietary vegans might be ignorant to the environmental and ethical aspects of veganism, that doesn't make them selfish. It just makes them ignorant.
Right. The good news is it's also easier for them to learn, and change the rest of their habits. Meat eating is the main thing that holds people back from having real compassion for animals.
[quote= Read about cognitive dissonance, then re-read my posts. If you don't understand after that, let me know and I'll explain in more detail.[/quote]
I know what cognitive dissonance is from many years of studying psychology but please explain how it is relevant to what I wrote. I think the main error you are making is that you seem to believe that most people become vegans for health reasons. This is the big difference between becoming vegan and becoming vegetarian. Most people become vegetarian for health reasons while an overwhelming majority of vegans made the decision because of ethical reasons.
Sure, one can come up with many reasons why people are selfish but that doesn't change the fact that they are selfish. I consumed animal products for over 30 years and this is something I am very ashamed of. I was being selfish, just like everyone else who is aware of the suffering but still decide not to become vegan.
Gary Yourofsky has decided to no longer focus on the dietary aspect of veganism in his speeches as he believes that focusing on the ethical aspect is a more effective way of convincing the animal consuming public to turn vegan. I totally agree with this strategy. Gary writes: "Health-based veganism IS selfish. In my newest speech, I only have 3 minutes of it".
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
As I said, consuming animal products does not make you selfish, it just makes you ignorant. You are simply not aware of what is behind the meat. You cannot make a selfish decision if not provided with the information that other interests are at stake.
For example, if I can choose whether I want to receive a thousand dollars that'll be stolen from someone else. If i choose not to receive the money it will not be stolen. It would be selfish to take the thousand dollars. However, if I am not provided with the information that the money will be stolen, the decision is no more than ignorant.
Jebus wrote:I was being selfish, just like everyone else who is aware of the suffering but still decide not to become vegan.
That is, providing they are actually aware, which many people are not. As I said, it is hard to make the connection between animal products and the suffering involved in the production of the process.
"I advocate infinite effort on behalf of very finite goals, for example correcting this guy's grammar."
- David Frum
Also worth noting: Choosing to eat unhealthy food instead of healthy food is not selfless, it's self destructive, which is often another kind of (even more irrational) selfishness.
Learning about the health benefits and choosing to eat vegan for health reasons isn't necessarily selfish, it's just a rational choice for people who don't agree with being self destructive, and it can even be selfless if they're doing it for sake of others they would hurt by keeling over of a heart attack earlier than necessary.
