Suicide Victims are Cowards?

[Cirion Spellbinder]

I don't understand the problem with solving temporary problems with permanent solutions. A permanent solution is the ultimate solution. It solves the temporary problem plus any further iterations of that temporary problem. Why would you want a temporary solution to a temporary problem? I'm not advocating for suicide, but I don't see how this type of problem solving is problematic.

[Dream Sphere]

I don't understand the problem with solving temporary problems with permanent solutions. A permanent solution is the ultimate solution. It solves the temporary problem plus any further iterations of that temporary problem. Why would you want a temporary solution to a temporary problem? I'm not advocating for suicide, but I don't see how this type of problem solving is problematic.

A person choosing this permanent solution of suicide would be removing any chance of them turning things around for the better, which I think makes it something to be very wary of before someone decides on it to be the solution to their problem. I think it reaches its most justifiable point as a last resort, where no other efforts or continued living hold any higher positive value. Though, as was stated earlier, it seems suicide is an action often taken in an impulsive manner, and the person doing it isn't likely to be thinking calmly or clearly, and so probably isn't considering workable options which would better change their situation than suicide. I'm thinking that if you're depressed that you almost certainly can't be sure of whether committing suicide would be justifiable, due to the likelihood that your thinking is skewed and unclear, in which case you should get psychiatric help instead as others have mentioned and which I mention later in this post. (I edited this last sentence in as an afterthought.)

This second paragraph is edited in as to better reply to your post which I quoted. Well, since suicide would remove the opportunity for that person to fulfill any more of their goals, or develop new goals, then (while I guess I could presume the answer of a person who's severely depressed,) I would ask them if they value throwing all other opportunity away in exchange for "solving" their problem. Really, I feel what's important is acknowledging that suicide likely isn't the best option, and that there are things that they could do which could both take the depressing problems away, and let them continue their life and develop and then achieve more of their goals and desires. Also, so if it's a temporary problem, then why not let it pass whenever it comes around and work to accomplish what really matters to you when you have the opportunity? Also, it might be worth looking into how you could lessen the frequency of the temporary problem, or make it so that it doesn't come around again, so that you won't have to deal with it. That would be better than suicide, wouldn't it? It's just that suicide is a solution with such finality and it ends the chance for them to realize great opportunities which they could come upon, which would be a shame for them to have robbed themselves of.

To touch on the main part of the topic. While I think suicide in some cases just is a selfish and technically cowardly action, I think that telling most depressed people that it's cowardly is something which most often wouldn't be productive to say to them, as it may make the world seem just that much more hostile, unforgiving, and cruel. That's something which may push a person who's depressed (and whom is particularly pained by things which a comment like that may feed into, whether it was intentional or not,) over the edge. There's also that even though a depressed person, who's alive and hearing someone else shaming people who've committed suicide, hasn't committed it themselves, it's likely that they've considered it, and that they could certainly feel shame for having considered something "cowardly" even if they've not actually done it. As an analogous example, think of a Vegan who's been one for a while, but who suddenly gets a craving for some unethical animal products, which they've renounced for the past while. Then think of the awful guilt they may feel for having even considered indulging in that bad practice again, even though they had let the cravings pass and didn't buy anything. (It would be a product which they at the time had no knowledge of ethical mock versions of, and were considering the real thing.)

I think that the problem is that mentally ill/depressed people may, by effects of their illness, choose not to see other viable options which may be available to them which would better their situation. I'm unsure, but I've felt that in certain cases of mental health and behavioral struggles which people have, that when the person thinks that they do have more control over themselves, their lives, and well-being, then it should result in them achieving more and getting better. The thing which I struggle with here is determining whether or not there are legitimate obstacles which are out of the person's control which hamper them. I'm thinking that some people may only need a change in what they ask of themselves and their values, which may bring them to a point where they start to realize their goals and get out of their bad space. However, that probably isn't the solution for some depressed people, and other things may have to change, but there's also that there may be some depressed people who may benefit from changing their lifestyle and values, but think of themselves as incapable of doing so and it might harm them to let them keep thinking that the change is out of their control. So, I guess that depressed people in general should seek help, and hopefully the psychologist/psychiatrist can evaluate the situation well enough to determine how best to solve the depressed person's undesirable situation, so that the depressed person may get out of their depression and live a greatly improved life.

[EquALLity]

Also note depressed people who have attempted suicide, but who didn't actually die from it.

[yuno44907]

Suicide...
Men suicide 3 times more than women.
People mostly suicide bcause of they dont have a sex life or nobody loves them. Some people never get a job. Some people gets banned 634 times like me. There is no reason for living, no reason for dying. What the f is this thing? Even life is illogical. Life is a part of evolution. We are evolve for becoming god. But sometimes you get bored. Having sex, playing games, ruling the world is boring. What is reason? What is god doing?

Guys i need your help. My country is a jail for atheist people. Why do you ignoring?

[thetruemasterofgames]

Clinial depression is a case where the chemical controlling sadness is stronger and creates an imbalance in the brain this messes you up pretty bad as it basically overpowers the brain. Some who have this feel like they have noone to go to noone to be there or have nothing to help them cope. And some really don't as noone understands it that they know and can accept that its an uncontrollable condition. This causes them to see suicide as the only way of release from this endless sorrow. I hope this helps abit.

[Blizzy]

If you are a suicide victim you are not a coward. But please, if you are depresserd and thinking aboot killing yourself DO NEVER DO IT you have so much to live for!!! God loves you and he cares for you, if you are experiencing bad things it is only a test like God testing Job. No matter how hard your life is, your reward will be great in Heaven! Athiests like to encourage people to commit suicide because they believe that life is meaningless (and any athiest who claims I am wrong is a hypocrite because if you seriously believe that we are all going to die everntually what does it matter? Murder, Rape, Slavery, Pedophillia, Bestiality, Necrophillia, etc. should all be Okay!) but do not listen to the athiests because they just hate God and want you to go to hal. Anyway, my point is: DO NOT COMMIT SUICIDE.

... Unless your white, then do it faggot. I will laugh.

[brimstoneSalad]

By that standard, anyone who 'gives up' by confessing when tortured is a coward.

Confessing, or giving up your friends, would be more cowardly than bearing the pain. It's a spectrum, or a ratio, that would take into consideration the degree of pain and fear, and the magnitude of the betrayal of your original will or duty.

Or even people with cancer who choose euthanasia.

Or it could be brave, to save their families from the stress of seeing them waste away, and save the cost of medical bills, etc.

not for people with anxiety etc. because their disorders prevent them from having nearly as much control over their fears as the average person

Or anxiety could just be defined as a condition of chronic cowardice. When you get into qualia, things become very vague and we have to ask questions about free will and the existential self.

Well yeah, suicidally-depressed people haven't actually gone through with suicide, but they very seriously consider it. So it still could reasonably be perceived by them as further attacks, which they really don't need any more of.

Thinking about retreating, and being aware of the option, doesn't make you a coward. Only going through with it would be a cowardly action. Fear is not cowardly; bravery is action in spite of fear.

It would probably be for some people, but I think that it'd dig most suicidally-depressed people into a deeper hole, because it could be reasonably seen as further attack.

I don't think it reasonably could. Many people are unreasonably sensitive, and that's a large part of the problem. I'm not sure social coddling, from avoiding criticizing cowardly actions as cowardly, or putting "trigger warning" everywhere is useful. Psychologically, I think it makes the situation worse as we expect less and less of each other.

Finally, according to my health teacher, a lot of depressed people don't want to seek help, even though they know that they really should.

That's up to them. People can do cowardly things if they want. I just don't see the use in avoiding calling it what it is.

One more thing: I've been thinking about what the people in class were saying, and I don't think that they actually said that suicide victims are cowards, but that the action of suicide is (presumably generally and in this context) cowardly. Not necessarily that that one moment of alleged cowardice makes suicide victims cowards overall.

That's very likely. Very rarely will one action define a person's life.

[EquALLity]

Confessing, or giving up your friends, would be more cowardly than bearing the pain. It's a spectrum, or a ratio, that would take into consideration the degree of pain and fear, and the magnitude of the betrayal of your original will or duty.

Well, ok, I agree with that it'd be more cowardly. But I think it'd usually not be cowardly when you consider all factors, but neutral.

Or anxiety could just be defined as a condition of chronic cowardice.

I don't think so, because those people really aren't in control. I don't think you can fault them for their mental illness. I think it's similar with depressed people who commit suicide.

Thinking about retreating, and being aware of the option, doesn't make you a coward. Only going through with it would be a cowardly action. Fear is not cowardly; bravery is action in spite of fear.

Hm, ok. But what about people who have attempted to commit suicide, but have survived?

I don't think it reasonably could. Many people are unreasonably sensitive, and that's a large part of the problem. I'm not sure social coddling, from avoiding criticizing cowardly actions as cowardly, or putting "trigger warning" everywhere is useful. Psychologically, I think it makes the situation worse as we expect less and less of each other.

What do you mean by a large part of the problem (what problem, depression)?

I don't think it's expecting less of them if it's the truth that these things would cause harm to people if shoved in their faces. It's just being realistic.

That's up to them. People can do cowardly things if they want.

Is it really when they are influenced by the depression?

[brimstoneSalad]

Well, ok, I agree with that it'd be more cowardly. But I think it'd usually not be cowardly when you consider all factors, but neutral.

Comparatively? What is neutral, in terms of cowardice?

We can compare people to the average, but it would still be cowardly compared to an ideal of bravery.
And holding out for a day would still be brave compared to the extreme of cowardice. It's relative.

I don't think so, because those people really aren't in control. I don't think you can fault them for their mental illness. I think it's similar with depressed people who commit suicide.

What's an illness, and what's a state or quality of personality?

But what about people who have attempted to commit suicide, but have survived?

Most people who "attempt" suicide aren't really trying to kill themselves, it's often a "cry for help".
Sometimes they are, and when that's the case, if they're determined, they'll succeed right after, as they figure out what they did wrong.

I don't think it's expecting less of them if it's the truth that these things would cause harm to people if shoved in their faces. It's just being realistic.

Look into the golem effect.

[EquALLity]

Comparatively? What is neutral, in terms of cowardice?
We can compare people to the average, but it would still be cowardly compared to an ideal of bravery.
And holding out for a day would still be brave compared to the extreme of cowardice. It's relative.

Well, ok, that's fair. I guess I'm just saying that it's justified cowardice, given the severity of the situation, and that therefore we shouldn't condemn people who confess when being tortured etc..

What's an illness, and what's a state or quality of personality?

We learned that something becomes classified as a mental illness when it is impacting your ability to function in everyday life. So, when feelings become strong enough that they do that.

Is it your position that mental disorders are just qualities of personality?

Sometimes they are, and when that's the case, if they're determined, they'll succeed right after, as they figure out what they did wrong.

Not necessarily. Some of the people who do that injure themselves to the point of hospitalization, but not death. And then, as many suicides are done impulsively, may not try to commit suicide as soon as they have the chance, and try to go back to their previous lives.

Look into the golem effect.

There has to be a line.

Without one, it seems to me that, factoring in the golem effect, anti-bullying campaigns are unethical because they presume that people will be harmed by the bullying.

By the way, I don't think we should only factor in reasonable reactions. It may be unreasonable for someone to believe something (like a depressed person feeling bad for having suicidal thoughts), but it may still happen. And if it causes harm, does it really matter if the harm is inspired by something reasonable or unreasonable, when we're talking about the ethics of it?