Are there vegan cults?

[seitan_forker]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Museum

[inator]

Sorry for taking so long to answer.

How many of your neighbors have you influenced to go vegan?
I haven't exchanged more than a couple words with mine. I don't see how not living by carnists would make much of a difference, since I don't really interact with my neighbors anyway.

Anecdotal evidence is not very meaningful... I've got a pretty good ratio in general (friends, family, co-workers and colleagues, random people). Not really with neighbours, though - I've only convinced one landlord to give up meat.

Right. If you're a nurse or doctor, or coach, or teacher something else with a lot of exposure to many different people and opportunities to talk about ethics and veganism or health, then you absolutely want exposure to carnists.

For most jobs, that's just not going to come up, and bringing it up is going to harm your prospects.

If you're selling cars, that might not be the best time to talk about veganism with the people you're trying to sell cars to, despite the large number of interactions. Even if you're a waitress or a cashier something, it might be harmful to your employment security to try to casually bring that stuff up.

That makes sense.

I don't agree. Most of the vegans I meet online say they don't know any vegans in person. I don't think it's really a prerequisite. Celebrities and atheletes that people are inspired by but don't know personally may be more effective to normalize veganism on a broad scale.

That said, I don't think it's harmful to be a normal vegan and a good influence on people, but I think you're exaggerating the effect.

Do you meet many vegans online outside of this forum?

It's not a prerequisite, but I do think that people who decide to go vegan without having any exposure to veganism in real life are pretty extraordinary. Most vegans I meet (in person) have made the transition because they've been in a relationship with a vegan or have a vegan friend/family member etc.

It might be a matter of vegan population density. If you're one of the only vegans in your area, then you're probably more likely to look for support online (and meet someone like you).
If the reverse is true, then a) you're probably more likely to not have come to that realization on your own; b) you might not feel as much need to look for an online vegan community.

Someone should do some stats on what vegans (subjectively) ascribe their transition to, in order of importance.

But yes, I probably am exaggerating the effect a bit. I keep thinking back to the only vegetarian I met briefly while I was still a carnist. Had he made an effort to talk to me about it, I would have probably turned vegan years sooner. It still bothers me.

What if focusing on one reduces your ability to do the other?

Like deciding to live among more carnists on the odd chance you might influence your neighbor, and as a result you do less leafleting because you're not a part of in activism group close to where you live (and there are none available).

Different solutions are appropriate for different contexts in terms of creating desireable results. There's probably no universal answer.
I don't have to live in a vegan building to meet up with vegans and do leafleting. But I do understand that others aren't as priviledged to be in an area with a considerable density of vegans. Living in a concentrated community, like an apartment block, may be a good idea for them.

Though I have to wonder why someone who can find enough vegans to live in the same building with can't also (and more easily) just organize a weekly meeting with vegans from a more extended area.
If you're truly the only vegan around, then there shouldn't be a difference between making the decision to move to a vegan-friendly city vs. moving to a vegan apartment block in a distant city.

Living in an area with more vegan neighbors (or even all vegan neighbors) doesn't stop you from also going out and just meeting people. Carnists, unlike vegans, are not hard to find.
You don't reduce your ability to meet carnists as much by living around vegans as you reduce your ability to meet vegans by living around carnists.

You've got a point there, but living amongst vegan neighbours may also make you spend a lot of time and form friendships with them, to the detriment of the time spent with other potential new friends (not necessarily neighbours) who might benefit from your influence.

You don't have to completely separate your personal life from your activism, it's definitely good to have a few vegan friends that you can be productive with. But hanging around vegans for most of your spare time might also not be ideal.

Leafleting isn't isolation. There's a lot of interaction when you do that. If you're living around vegans for isolation, you're doing it for the wrong reason.

I'm not arguing against organized activism, only against living in a pretty isolated tight-knit community. Like the Jewish communities you used as a parallel earlier. It might work for them, since their only goal is value conservation, not diffusion.

à-bas-le-ciel has another video here, which I think is much more important and relevant to activism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UezI3u8iXA

Convenient friendships with fellow vegans is essential for most people to do good work.

Yes, but does friendship have to be the first step in a collaboration, or can it also just develop afterwards as a by-product of common work and as a result of increased contact with that person? Both are plausible. For me it's usually the latter.

I'll go get some vegan friends, challenge accepted. A few months should be enough time to see if I've managed to do anything productive with them and to what degree they reduce my ability to spend enough time with carnists.

[inator]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Museum

Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_East_(film)

[brimstoneSalad]

Anecdotal evidence is not very meaningful... I've got a pretty good ratio in general (friends, family, co-workers and colleagues, random people). Not really with neighbours, though - I've only convinced one landlord to give up meat.

That seems extraordinary, since most people don't have as much luck. But how much time did you spend on that?

Similar results may have been achieved by a couple hours of leafleting.
I've seen a grown man take a leaflet, and come back a couple minutes later crying about what he had learned, and pledging to go vegan. That was something like two minutes of work. And there are statistics to back that up, not just anecdotes.

Leafleting is remarkably successful because of the huge number of people it targets. My main point is that one-on-one friendship evangelism is so incredibly time consuming and ineffective for time put in that it is trivial by comparison.

If living around other vegans got somebody to go out to leaflet once, that would likely make more difference than a lifetime of friendly interaction.

I would say we need vegan friends to stay vegan (as a support system), but conversion is more easily achieved impartially, or through public figures.

Do you meet many vegans online outside of this forum?

Yes, but I've met far many more online. Even in an area with a relatively dense population, it's trouble to commute to meet others.

It's not a prerequisite, but I do think that people who decide to go vegan without having any exposure to veganism in real life are pretty extraordinary. Most vegans I meet (in person) have made the transition because they've been in a relationship with a vegan or have a vegan friend/family member etc.

If that's so, it's probably just due to the number of people who are vegan and just know people (which is much larger than those who are leafleting, or the outreach online), rather than any actual testament to relative efficacy.

Of course, I do not doubt that knowing other vegans helps keep people vegan.

It might be a matter of vegan population density. If you're one of the only vegans in your area, then you're probably more likely to look for support online (and meet someone like you).
If the reverse is true, then a) you're probably more likely to not have come to that realization on your own; b) you might not feel as much need to look for an online vegan community.

This may be true too, but the latter is the case in most areas.

Someone should do some stats on what vegans (subjectively) ascribe their transition to, in order of importance.

I agree, but we'd also have to normalize based on methods of outreach and their prevalence.
The only thing we have much hard data on now is leafleting, and internet videos to some extent (which can also be pretty effective, but not always something individuals can do).

But yes, I probably am exaggerating the effect a bit. I keep thinking back to the only vegetarian I met briefly while I was still a carnist. Had he made an effort to talk to me about it, I would have probably turned vegan years sooner. It still bothers me.

Sure, but look at it from his perspective: we all try to do that in the beginning, and most of us end up with so much vitriol spewed at us that it's severely demoralizing. People rarely just agree and go vegan on the spot but rather can be quite defensive and rude (which is where leaflets are nice, although you only occasionally see the results).
I don't believe, particularly for most people who are at serious risk of recidivism already, that it's a particularly useful practice.

Recidivism is our greatest issue today, and according to that one survey that broke down the reason, 15% of it was social cost ( https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/an ... ating-meat )
Living very near other vegans, and being friends with other vegans, reduces that social cost.

I don't have to live in a vegan building to meet up with vegans and do leafleting.

How often do you leaflet now?
You rarely see anybody on the street leafleting alone, from political causes to Christian ministries. They're almost always in groups for moral support.

Though I have to wonder why someone who can find enough vegans to live in the same building with can't also (and more easily) just organize a weekly meeting with vegans from a more extended area.

I'm guessing you've never tried to organize a weekly meeting; it's very hard to keep up with people and get them to show up if you're not all in the same area. It's very easy somewhere like a college dorm, though.
When it's just down stairs, the barrier to entry is very low. Even a five minute car ride can be enough to convince people not to show up, and you need all of the help you can get to maintain an active social group.

You've got a point there, but living amongst vegan neighbours may also make you spend a lot of time and form friendships with them, to the detriment of the time spent with other potential new friends (not necessarily neighbours) who might benefit from your influence.

If you spend even an extra hour of leafleting a year, it's likely well worth it. And then the boost to adherence is even better; have a social group of six vegans for a year, and statistically one has probably been stopped from backsliding.

I'm not arguing against organized activism, only against living in a pretty isolated tight-knit community. Like the Jewish communities you used as a parallel earlier. It might work for them, since their only goal is value conservation, not diffusion.

Value conservation needs to be one of our primary goals. Recidivism is the biggest issue in veganism. When over 75% of people quit in short order (and probably even more in the long run), it's not very useful to keep filling a leaking pot.

Yes, but does friendship have to be the first step in a collaboration, or can it also just develop afterwards as a by-product of common work and as a result of increased contact with that person? Both are plausible. For me it's usually the latter.

Some level of trust? I think so. Most people are pretty unreliable, and a certain level of trust is needed to establish a working relationship. Unless, of course, a third party is paying you both to work together.

I'll go get some vegan friends, challenge accepted. A few months should be enough time to see if I've managed to do anything productive with them and to what degree they reduce my ability to spend enough time with carnists.

If they only live in the same city? Good luck organizing one single meetup, much less a followup. This is where proximity means so much.
Of course, the web can bring people together in a convenient way too, but it's of limited utility in terms of social support.

Being surrounded by carnists is not helpful for most people. Said surrounded vegans are more likely to start eating meat again than get anybody else to give it up.

[inator]

That seems extraordinary, since most people don't have as much luck. But how much time did you spend on that?

No extra time, it just kind of grows organically out of regular interpersonal interactions that I'd have anyway. For example, a chatty taxi driver pledged to give up meat after a ride with me, and actually followed up with an email after he watched Earthlings.

I've seen a grown man take a leaflet, and come back a couple minutes later crying about what he had learned, and pledging to go vegan. That was something like two minutes of work. And there are statistics to back that up, not just anecdotes.

Interesting, I didn't take you for the leafleting type. That's a good story, I'll be sure to ask you for some tips on effective leaflet design when I get to it.

Leafleting is remarkably successful because of the huge number of people it targets. My main point is that one-on-one friendship evangelism is so incredibly time consuming and ineffective for time put in that it is trivial by comparison.

If living around other vegans got somebody to go out to leaflet once, that would likely make more difference than a lifetime of friendly interaction.

Got it. It just seems a bit counterintuitive to me that anyone would take a piece of information that they didn't actively seek out and that didn't come from a source of authority or familiarity seriously enough to make an actual change in behavior. But the data looks convincing.

I would say we need vegan friends to stay vegan (as a support system), but conversion is more easily achieved impartially, or through public figures.

I agree that authority figures or publications with high exposure should be our main target right now. Like what you guys did in the Sam Harris thread.

Recidivism is our greatest issue today, and according to that one survey that broke down the reason, 15% of it was social cost ( https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/an ... ating-meat )
Living very near other vegans, and being friends with other vegans, reduces that social cost.

Veg*ans at high risk of recidivism would certainly benefit from more support. That said, vegans only hanging around vegans can raise the social cost for carnists who may consider going vegan were it not for the cult-like image that we sometimes give off.

I don't have to live in a vegan building to meet up with vegans and do leafleting.

How often do you leaflet now?
You rarely see anybody on the street leafleting alone, from political causes to Christian ministries. They're almost always in groups for moral support.

No, I mean it's really not that difficult to get together with vegans here. I haven't done leafleting yet, but it seems like I should, and I will. Even though it sounds like a pretty unattractive activity.

If they only live in the same city? Good luck organizing one single meetup, much less a followup. This is where proximity means so much.

It shouldn't be terribly difficult. There are already many groups of regulars and usually the main problem is that there are too few available spots relative to demand. What I'm most concerned about is that all we'll manage to do is to socialize rather than something more constructive (I'm not really after the social support). I'll see how it goes.

Some level of trust? I think so. Most people are pretty unreliable, and a certain level of trust is needed to establish a working relationship. Unless, of course, a third party is paying you both to work together.

It's preferable to collaborate with someone you find very capable with regard to the task rather than someone you like on a personal level. Trust is only one attribute of friendship and it can be established by other means, e.g. reputation. I would trust you, even though I don't know you. Friendship also implies some sort of mutual affection and emotional support. It's more than just association.

Value conservation needs to be one of our primary goals. Recidivism is the biggest issue in veganism. When over 75% of people quit in short order (and probably even more in the long run), it's not very useful to keep filling a leaking pot.

Being surrounded by carnists is not helpful for most people. Said surrounded vegans are more likely to start eating meat again than get anybody else to give it up.

That may be true for most people. But if you're unwavering in your veganism, it may also be important to keep yourself sensitized and sympathetic towards carnists by interacting with them often. Even for hyperempathetic people there's the risk of becoming angry and starting to see others as monsters. I'm more apprehensive about the prospect of segregated antagonistic communities than of an excessive flexibility of beliefs. Though I might be wrong.

Ideally we'd have fickle vegans live in tight vegan communities to get the support they need, and stable vegans interact more with carnists. Though in reality it's probably the other way around.

[brimstoneSalad]

No extra time, it just kind of grows organically out of regular interpersonal interactions that I'd have anyway. For example, a chatty taxi driver pledged to give up meat after a ride with me, and actually followed up with an email after he watched Earthlings.

That's pretty amazing. Do you live in a pretty liberal city?

Got it. It just seems a bit counterintuitive to me that anyone would take a piece of information that they didn't actively seek out and that didn't come from a source of authority or familiarity seriously enough to make an actual change in behavior. But the data looks convincing.

I know what you mean. I think it's less threatening to people when it comes in a form of a leaflet, because the leaflet isn't judging them (or they can't imagine it is), so they end up less defensive. Also, for most people, printed information is seen as more credible (we don't really experience that, so it's harder to relate to).

That said, vegans only hanging around vegans can raise the social cost for carnists who may consider going vegan were it not for the cult-like image that we sometimes give off.

An established social group is what attracts people to religion. I don't think people are even afraid of joining real cults, because they think of themselves as free thinkers (even when they clearly aren't), so it's likely to be nothing more than a shallow attack (which people will make whether vegans are more inclined to group up or not).

No, I mean it's really not that difficult to get together with vegans here. I haven't done leafleting yet, but it seems like I should, and I will. Even though it sounds like a pretty unattractive activity.

It's unattractive as an individual, but can be pretty attractive as a social activity.

It shouldn't be terribly difficult. There are already many groups of regulars and usually the main problem is that there are too few available spots relative to demand.

Not sure what you mean.

That may be true for most people. But if you're unwavering in your veganism, it may also be important to keep yourself sensitized and sympathetic towards carnists by interacting with them often. Even for hyperempathetic people there's the risk of becoming angry and starting to see others as monsters. I'm more apprehensive about the prospect of segregated antagonistic communities than of an excessive flexibility of beliefs. Though I might be wrong.

I think the risk is particularly true for more empathetic people, because they're hurt more when people reject their pleas.

I don't think it has to be one way or the other, though.
We just have to foster a culture of effective communication with carnists. Obviously that's easier said than done, but I also think it's easier done in a group, because even outside groups -- and even with new vegans -- people become jaded and very aggressive.

Regarding leaflet design, we could do a forum project on that, I'd bet.