Philosophical Vegan Forum

^Does he think there's a reasonable chance you're going to burn in 'Hell'?

Cirion Spellbinder wrote:You certainly can marry a theist, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you know that they are open minded. It seems like it would be extremely frustrating.

Can you give me an example of a debate you have had with him about Catholicism?

1. I guess the main reason why he refuses to leave Catholicism, and thinks that it's correct, is the origin of the universe. He believes in evolution (at least I think so) but until something understandable comes along (because that physics is vastly over my head) he just doesn't see how something so complex could have come about, much less something out of nothing like the Big Bang. So, there has to be a god that is outside of time to have created all of everything.

2. We have also argued about the sanctity of marriage. While I know that the bond in marriage doesn't really mean anything, on an emotional level marriage to the one I love does mean something to me further than just some tax benefits. But he thinks it means something because of my previous Catholic faith.

3. He also refuses to think that this is the end of our life. There has to be meaning and a purpose, and there would be none without faith.

4. He also thinks that morals can only come from god. He doesn't say that because I'm atheist that I have no morals, but thinks that god is the cause of them

5. I live in the US, and he thinks that this country was founded on Christ.

Those are about it?

EquALLity wrote:^Does he think there's a reasonable chance you're going to burn in 'Hell'?

Um....I actually don't know? I think I may have sarcastically stated that I was going to burn in hell and he definitely defended himself and said he never said that, but I don't know what he believes.

Edit: But keep in mind we were taught in my school that we don't even know if Hitler is in hell, and he could have gone to purgatory, repented, and be in heaven now.

garrethdsouza wrote:

What are your thoughts on veganism and have you thought/are informed a bit on dietary ethics/skepticism?

I'd rather keep this particular forum to my topic, but in short I have.

Avoid rushing in to things as big as a lifelong commitments...

Maybe I didn't make it too clear, but I'm definitely opposed to getting married any time soon. I have a lot of time ahead of me. He is just very family oriented and thinks about it a lot.

Do you have any issues about coming out as an atheist to others? Are there any local atheist groups?

I don't have issues coming out to strangers or identifying it in a hospital form or something like that, but to my family and old Catholic friends definitely. I did tell one friend who has been atheist all his life about it and we talked, but he was sworn to secrecy.

I live in Arizona, United States and I have NO clue about local atheist groups. I've spent a lot of time on the internet looking for a forum like this, but this is the first time I have ever chatted with other people who are like-minded. I mean I've seen plenty of YouTube videos reassuring that i'm not crazy and alone, but that's about it.

CXC0401 wrote:

garrethdsouza wrote:

What are your thoughts on veganism and have you thought/are informed a bit on dietary ethics/skepticism?

I'd rather keep this particular forum to my topic, but in short I have.

This could be relevant in the sense that if you both happened to share a strong and unique common value (atheists and Catholics don't generally share any values by default), like ethics/love for animals, that might be enough to unite you.
For example, the owner of this site is married to a religious woman, but they are both vegan and because they share that (and society at large has very poor values in that respect) there may be enough common ground to keep them together despite other differences.

Kind of how in the movies when the alien hordes come to destroy the Earth, everybody unites together.

The biggest thing there is sharing certain values -- not just typical values we can take for granted that any bum off the street has like being against genocide, but special or extraordinary values that bring you two together against the tide of human apathy and misery.

Most people are functionally nihilists, and when couples don't share common values, there's nothing really keeping them together. And no, children definitely don't fix that (contrary to popular belief).

CXC0401 wrote:

EquALLity wrote:^Does he think there's a reasonable chance you're going to burn in 'Hell'?

Um....I actually don't know? I think I may have sarcastically stated that I was going to burn in hell and he definitely defended himself and said he never said that, but I don't know what he believes.

Edit: But keep in mind we were taught in my school that we don't even know if Hitler is in hell, and he could have gone to purgatory, repented, and be in heaven now.

Hm, maybe you should ask him.

Hello CXC0401, welcome to the forum. I've been reading what others have written so far and I'd like to offer my own input as well.

brimstoneSalad wrote:

CXC0401 wrote:

garrethdsouza wrote:What are your thoughts on veganism and have you thought/are informed a bit on dietary ethics/skepticism?

I'd rather keep this particular forum to my topic, but in short I have.

This could be relevant in the sense that if you both happened to share a strong and unique common value (atheists and Catholics don't generally share any values by default), like ethics/love for animals, that might be enough to unite you.
For example, the owner of this site is married to a religious woman, but they are both vegan and because they share that (and society at large has very poor values in that respect) there may be enough common ground to keep them together despite other differences.

@ CXC0401: I think that these are some important points to consider, from Garreth Dsouza and BrimstoneSalad. Perhaps more so than the positions that you and your romantic partner hold on God and the afterlife, it matters what sort of values you both hold. As BrimstoneSalad said, not just simple, typical values that nearly everyone agrees on, but extraordinary ones that bring you together, and allow you both to (mutually) inspire each other to be better people. If you can find something like that which exceeds the theological differences that you and your boyfriend hold, then the relationship might be strong enough.

As for myself (and likely for others on this forum), veganism is a moral philosophy which is very important to me, due to its practical benefits to the welfare of animals, the earth, and human health. On top of that it's also quite uncommon (in terms of how many people practice it). So if I were looking to form a romantic relationship, then this would be something that I'd really want my partner to have in common with me.

If I had the opportunity to be in a relationship with a religious vegan who cares deeply about the well-being of animals and the environment, then it might work out for the two of us. Possibly someone who is inspired by a loving, compassionate deity (not the callous, arrogant, genocidal egomaniac of Judeo-Christian mythology, who doesn't hold himself accountable to anyone).

I think I would like a relationship more with this kind of a person, than an anti-vegan nihilistic atheist*. If I meet an atheist who insists that morality is either a useless concept, or is (at best) relative, then I'd view that as a red light.

A hypothetical, anti-vegan, nihilistic athiest wrote:There's no god(s) and therefore we should feel free to live however we'd like, no matter who we screw over. Don't give a shit about vulnerable beings. Fuck animals... ...and really, who actually gives a shit about the environment, or long term health? We're all going to die anyways, so whatever... ...LOL!

With this attitude, I'd sooner get together with the theist I described above, rather than this nihilist (even though I might prefer a vegan atheist the most).

Regardless of whether or not veganism is something you care about, I'd insist that it's important to have strong values (whatever they may be) in common with your boyfriend, and that this might be enough to have a good relationship. Sorry if I wrote too much.



* To any interested forum members: have you come across many atheists like this? Nihilists who are practically walking billboards for theism; an embarrassment to atheists who care about morality, and strive to demonstrate to theists that they can have it without god(s). How common are they, among the total of all atheists?

brimstoneSalad wrote:Most people are functionally nihilists...

What do you mean? How sure of this are you?

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:What do you mean? How sure of this are you?

The attitude you have expressed in your hypothetical quote I have found to be typical. Of Christians too, with a modification:

A hypothetical, anti-vegan, nihilistic Christian wrote:Everybody's a sinner, and forgiven by Jesus, and therefore we should feel free to live however we'd like, no matter who we screw over as long as we accept Jesus. Don't give a shit about vulnerable beings. Fuck animals... ...and really, who actually gives a shit about the environment, or long term health? We're all going to die anyways and the world is going to end, so whatever... ...LOL!

If it weren't true that most people were functional nihilists, we'd live in a very different kind of world.

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:* To any interested forum members: have you come across many atheists like this? Nihilists who are practically walking billboards for theism; an embarrassment to atheists who care about morality, and strive to demonstrate to theists that they can have it without god(s). How common are they, among the total of all atheists?

The vast majority of "skeptics" and vocal atheists, in my experience.
However, this also applies to most Christians, they just usually don't express it so overtly due to social pressure to pretend to care about things.

brimstoneSalad wrote:The vast majority of "skeptics" and vocal atheists, in my experience.
However, this also applies to most Christians, they just usually don't express it so overtly due to social pressure to pretend to care about things.

Doesn't this contradict what you wrote on the Sesame Credit topic?

brimstoneSalad wrote:It sound sickeningly optimistic, but most human beings see themselves as the protagonists in this great narrative, and ultimately want to be good people (as long as they're also comfortable first). When people have a science based world view, it's very hard to hide from the harm certain policies cause. The Chinese government is not the Republican party; there's no denial going on there, just a weighing of costs and benefits.

What exactly do you mean by 'functional nihilist'?