Philosophical Vegan Forum

Her being vegan is not an issue. I just wished it didn't cause some tension between us. I still didn't like the terrorism analogy because it makes it seem as if brimstone is assuming to know how my daughter sees me as a non vegan. But I get where brimstone is coming from.

EquALLity wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:33 amIf you aren't against veganism, then scenario A wouldn't apply to you. It's not about the tax evasion or terrorism itself, it's about the situation.

You mean if he isn't against tax evasion?

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:34 am brimstone- I have not stated here or to her that I think her beliefs are stupid or ridiculous. Having raised my children alone since they were 10. I'm very certain they'd be able to pick up my mental ques she'd know if I thought her beliefs were silly.

As I said, I think she'd pick up on that -- and maybe she has. Based on the language you're using, the implication is that you think veganism is silly or unimportant. That's the sense that I got.

Even if you don't think veganism is silly, you may have given her that impression from your use of language.

Acknowledging to her explicitly that you think animal rights or animal welfare are important issues, and that unnecessary harm to animals is wrong, and that she's doing something important for the world and the moral progress of humanity would be enormous and could change her view of you.

That is not just that you respect her personally, but that you respect and agree with some of the fundamental principles she's advocating. That you are not just indifferent to her going vegan, but that you are proud of her for doing it.

For example, like Richard Dawkins' perspective here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti-WcnqUwLM
(No graphic footage, just a clip from a philosophical discussion)

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:34 amShe's the type who would call me out on it as well.

Maybe she did, and you missed the subtext, or maybe she was overwhelmed and didn't communicate well. It happens to the best of us.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:34 amAre you comparing not eating meat to terrorism? As a veteran I'll be honest I find that analogy in poor taste.

I'm trying to find something you care about, at all, to compare it to.

Comparing is not equating. We can compare the feelings your daughter may have about you killing animals to the feelings you may have about a friend sponsoring terrorism abroad. That does not mean saying they are the same, or at the same level.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:34 amAnd I can tell you right now my meat eating and hunting does not paint me as a terrorist in her eyes. Shes angry but no where near that angry to see me and her brother as some monsters.

You said she disowned you, and you wanted to understand why... but now you already know the answer? We're trying to give you some insight here.
I understand that you're offended: good, maybe you can put yourself in her shoes and understand a little of what she feels.
She may not see you that negatively (and I did NOT say your friends were terrorists, I said they were funding terrorist organizations -- there's a difference), but she has a very negative feeling about what you're doing, much like you would if you found out some friends were funding a terrorist organization.

There are a lot of differences between eating meat and funding a terrorist organization, but the negative feeling of a loved one doing one of these things which you find deeply unethical could be identical.

Many (not all) vegans feel that the two are pretty much equivalent. If she's interested in doing activism full-time, it's very likely that she does see it that way, and you're struggling to accept the possibility that the reason she is disowning you is because she does see you that way right now (or at least somewhere in that neighborhood).

The biggest difference between eating meat and funding terrorism in her eyes is probably that eating meat is often done out of habit and out of ignorance: the meat eater doesn't necessarily understand the harm he or she is doing. While funding terrorism is being done intentionally and in full knowledge.
If she has informed you of the harms of killing animals, and now you are no longer doing it out of ignorance or habit, that difference could be wearing thin from her perspective.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:34 amHearing she may quit her job to do activism full time from a friend of hers concerns me. but perhaps her activism will be paid for or whatnot. I think she could keep her job and do activism full time. But I'm not sure what is going on since we haven't spoken.

It's not easy for most people to hold two full time jobs; we don't have unlimited energy. Full time activism means you're devoting all of your effort to it, not losing a work day to another job and coming into it tired and drained.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:34 amMaybe do some activism with her. I see no harm in that.

That could be good, but a shift in mindset is really important.
It's fine that you see no harm in it. But do you see good in it?

If you can get to the place where you don't see veganism as neutral, but as a good thing (even if you don't do it), you'll be able to relate to her much better and convey the level of respect and support she's probably looking for.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:12 pm I still didn't like the terrorism analogy because it makes it seem as if brimstone is assuming to know how my daughter sees me as a non vegan.

I'm not assuming, but you should be open to the possibility that her views are currently on that level.
This is not an unusual feeling for vegans, particularly new vegans who are putting themselves deep into activism.
She will probably mellow out with time, but that's not a sure thing.

IF there's something you can do to change your mindset and convey that to her, that could make a big difference. If you're already supportive of veganism and think animal agriculture is a social ill that needs to be ended, then you might just need to work on your communication of that because the way you're talking about these things right now paints a very different picture.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:08 am It's simply a non issue to me.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:08 am I'd rather not loose my daughter over something that's a non issue.

By "non-issue" are you saying the fact that your daughter is vegan is not a problem for you? Or that veganism as an ideology is a non-issue? If the latter is the case, this implies apathy toward animal suffering, which could agitate your daughter.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:08 am Then she said she was done with her "carnist" family. Upon looking that up it seems to be a slur for non vegan.

It can be used a slur or insult, but academics refer to carnism as the ideology that conditions people support the consumption of animals. It's basically the antithesis of veganism. As the dominant ideology, it has the privilege of remaining unnamed and unnoticed. Carnists may not realize that the kind of animals they eat (and the way animals are used) are based off of a set of beliefs, just as with vegans. This is why you think it's fine to hunt elk, but not dogs.

Your daughter is not the only person bringing her beliefs to the table.

https://www.carnism.org/carnism

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:08 am So my question is what do I do?

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:08 am How do you deal with your non vegan family? I'd rather not loose my daughter over something that's a non issue.

Just wondering, are you receptive of her lifestyle and her stance on animal suffering? Purchasing or hunting animals is never a personal choice. You give the impression that she should simply be vegan and stay "quiet." Have you engaged with her about veganism, or why she disagrees with your eating animals? If you (intentionally or unintentionally) dismiss her concerns, she may feel that she can no longer have conversation with you.

Be sure to take her position seriously. To her, choosing to eat (or not to eat) animals is NOT a personal decision. It's a decision that affects millions of sentient beings. I think that more discussion and better communication could help to alleviate the issue. Try to listen to (not just hear) her.

I am not a parent, but I am the only vegan in my immediate family. I don't handle things the way your daughter does, but I can understand her frustration. I make the effort not to alienate myself from my friends and family because of my ideology. But they also have meet me halfway. After some INTENSE discussion, and reading the book Eating Animals and Animal Rights and Human Morality, my parents have learned to be receptive of my viewpoints, and they respect my lifestyle. Though they're still not personally convinced to go vegan, they're pretty understanding.

Kudos for being so invested in trying to mend your relationship with your daughter. Being a vegan should never break apart families.

brimstoneSalad wrote:You mean if he isn't against tax evasion?

As far as I understand, scenario A is describing the same situation in each example, just with a different topic... I was making the connection clear.

EquALLity wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:59 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote:You mean if he isn't against tax evasion?

As far as I understand, scenario A is describing the same situation in each example, just with a different topic... I was making the connection clear.

I think you confused the analogy. It's:

The tax evading neighbors (who aren't against not evading taxes, they consider it a personal choice) vs. him (if he is against tax evasion)

The terrorism sponsoring neighbors (who aren't against not sponsoring terrorism, they think it's a personal choice) vs. him (if he's against sponsoring terrorism)

HIM as a hunter and meat eater (who is not against veganism, just thinks it's a personal hoice) vs. his daughter (who is against those things)

The analogy doesn't require him being against veganism, because the important component is his daughter being against meat-eating/hunting. It breaks down if he doesn't care about tax evasion or terrorism, though, because then he wouldn't have anything to use as an analogy to understand her feelings. Some people literally don't care about anything that doesn't affect them or their families personally, and wouldn't mind somebody sponsoring terrorism abroad. I was starting to think he was a nihilist, but it's good to see that he does oppose terrorism even if it's not near his home.

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:02 am

EquALLity wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:59 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote:You mean if he isn't against tax evasion?

As far as I understand, scenario A is describing the same situation in each example, just with a different topic... I was making the connection clear.

I think you confused the analogy. It's:

The tax evading neighbors (who aren't against not evading taxes, they consider it a personal choice) vs. him (if he is against tax evasion)

The terrorism sponsoring neighbors (who aren't against not sponsoring terrorism, they think it's a personal choice) vs. him (if he's against sponsoring terrorism)

HIM as a hunter and meat eater (who is not against veganism, just thinks it's a personal hoice) vs. his daughter (who is against those things)

The analogy doesn't require him being against veganism, because the important component is his daughter being against meat-eating/hunting. It breaks down if he doesn't care about tax evasion or terrorism, though, because then he wouldn't have anything to use as an analogy to understand her feelings. Some people literally don't care about anything that doesn't affect them or their families personally, and wouldn't mind somebody sponsoring terrorism abroad. I was starting to think he was a nihilist, but it's good to see that he does oppose terrorism even if it's not near his home.

I was saying that if he isn't against veganism, Scenario A wouldn't apply, because his response to veganism wouldn't be similar to the response of the people committing tax evasion/terrorism in scenario A. I was comparing the responses, because you were questioning his response to his daughter's veganism.

Brimstone_ What have I said to make you think I think veganism is silly? And again you are assuming to know things about my daughter and our relationship. I would ask that you stop with the assumptions please. Sounds like you are wanting to project or something. If you are curious as to what my thoughts on veganism are here they are. I have none it's as simple as that. If someone wants to be vegan thats fine if someone doesn't want to be vegan thats also fine. That is where my thoughts begin and end on the subject.

Everyone else- Thank you for the replies. I just an FYI I did not join this forum to become vegan. Just wanted to know how some vegans handle non vegan family members. I appreciate the advice. I'm just going to give her some time and next time I speak with her I'll again reassure her I have and will always care about her no matter what she does. Thnaks

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:54 am Everyone else- Thank you for the replies. I just an FYI I did not join this forum to become vegan. Just wanted to know how some vegans handle non vegan family members. I appreciate the advice. I'm just going to give her some time and next time I speak with her I'll again reassure her I have and will always care about her no matter what she does. Thnaks

Once again, I hope things work out with you and your daughter. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask at any point. Have a good one!

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:54 am If you are curious as to what my thoughts on veganism are here they are. I have none it's as simple as that. If someone wants to be vegan thats fine if someone doesn't want to be vegan thats also fine. That is where my thoughts begin and end on the subject.

Have you engaged openly and honestly with your daughter about veganism? Or is more of a “don’t ask don’t tell” kind of thing?

It’s good to hear you have no problem with her being vegan, but being so apathetic about animal suffering isn’t exactly the best attitude to have for serious discussion with a vegan.

Have you made any effort at all to understand her ethical viewpoint? For example, I had my parents read a few books on the topic, and afterward they fully understand and respect my position. They don’t just undertsand that I’m a vegan, they understand WHY I’m a vegan, and they respect my decision.

EquALLity wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:41 am I was saying that if he isn't against veganism, Scenario A wouldn't apply, because his response to veganism wouldn't be similar to the response of the people committing tax evasion/terrorism in scenario A.

In those scenarios, those people weren't necessarily against other people paying their taxes, they were just personally opposed to paying taxes, and either willing or unwilling to discuss their reasons and consider other views.

He is certainly against going vegan himself, personally -- as in, he is uninterested/doesn't want to do it. He just isn't against his daughter (or other people) being vegan.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:54 am Brimstone_ What have I said to make you think I think veganism is silly?

Talking about it being a non-issue, among other statements that indicated you weren't interested/open to seriously considering the topic. There are a few in this very post.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:54 amAnd again you are assuming to know things about my daughter and our relationship. I would ask that you stop with the assumptions please.

I'm not assuming anything, I've been saying may, possibly, etc. and it's based on evidence of my own experiences and what other vegans say about their perspectives on animal cruelty and hunting (some even celebrate hunters dying because they think they deserve it, I don't agree with that perspective of course, but just as an indication of how strong these feelings are for some).
Vegans who disown their family members and want to be activists full time are VERY serious about it.
Unless your daughter has always made a habit of disowning you over minor mishaps, I can all but guarantee you that this has nothing to do with the green beans, those just may have been the last straw that set her off.
To me, it's very obvious that your daughter's perspective on meat eating and people who eat meat has clearly changed, and she views them negatively -- more negatively than you want to believe.

YOU came here seeking insight because you didn't understand what was going on with your relationship with her. Obviously you aren't really interested in other people's opinions (those who have been in her shoes).

I have experience with this situation from her perspective, so does EquALLity, and Lay Vegan. If you're not interested in understanding the various possibilities of what she may be feeling based on the actual experience of vegans who have been there, then that's precisely the problem: sorry, but as I see it, it's your closed minded attitude that is driving your daughter away. That is my perspective based on my experience. If you were my father I'd disown you too. NOT because you eat meat, but because you won't listen and you think you already know all of the answers and you get hostile or dismissive when somebody is trying to engage with you (note how you're trying to shut down this conversation with me). It's more respectful to argue than to do what you're doing.

You think you're being civil right now, but I'm sorry to have to inform you that you're being a jerk. You're asking for help and then being closed minded and getting defensive and throwing it back in my face when I give you information you don't want to hear.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:54 amSounds like you are wanting to project or something.

That's exactly what you need! How do you not get this?
You need us to be putting ourselves in her shoes (projecting) and imagining how she may feel so we can explain it to you.
I have had very similar experiences. I can tell you what went wrong.
EquALLity has had similar experiences too, and she can tell you what went right.
Same with Lay Vegan, and what went right for him is precisely what I'm advising you to do -- engage!

Your daughter's psychology may be completely unique and she may have feelings nothing like those of anybody here. Again, I'm not using absolute language here, but the probability of her feeling this way is VERY high and I'd put good money on it.
Maybe her feelings are more like EquALLity's, maybe they're more like mine or Lay Vegan's, or maybe they're more extreme and in line with activists I've known (as I said, this is empirically probable if she's seriously thinking about full time activism).

From my perspective, if you DON'T want a relationship with your daughter, then keep doing exactly what you're doing, ignore what I'm saying and stay exactly how you are, ignoring the actual issue of your behavior. Keep pretending it was the slip-up over the green beans that she's actually upset about.
IF you apologize to her for the green beans again without acknowledging the issue, it has a chance of just making her more angry with you because you're assuming this just has to do with the green beans, which would be adding more insult.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:54 amIf you are curious as to what my thoughts on veganism are here they are. I have none it's as simple as that. If someone wants to be vegan thats fine if someone doesn't want to be vegan thats also fine. That is where my thoughts begin and end on the subject.

And that's a big part of the problem. You are not open minded to changing your thoughts on veganism, you just don't want to think about it. If she is anything like me or any of the serious activists I've known, she wants you to respect her enough to think about it because it's important to her, and she wants you to acknowledge the basic realities of animal suffering and ethics. You don't have to go vegan (look at Lay Vegan's example), but you have to seriously think about these issues and engage with her on it: THAT is how you respect somebody, and if you have NO thoughts on veganism you are not respecting her. You can go through the motions of making vegan food, and for some vegans that would be enough because it's all they want: those are not the kind of vegans who become full time activists and disown family members for being "carnists" (supposedly, but I do not believe this is why she is disowning you in itself). The vegans who want to influence people and spread the vegan message don't care if you cook for them: they just want you to engage with the issue seriously and consider these things, and acknowledge some basic ethical principles. Ideally you act on them and eat less meat, but even recognizing them in principle is respectful, ignoring the issue entirely is the opposite of respectful.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:54 amI just an FYI I did not join this forum to become vegan.

That was abundantly clear.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:54 amJust wanted to know how some vegans handle non vegan family members.

You wanted a simple answer that didn't require you to seriously engage with veganism, and maintain your neutrality. There's a significant chance that's not going to work, and is only going to be seen as patronizing and disrespectful to her.

deadeye68 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:54 amI'm just going to give her some time and next time I speak with her I'll again reassure her I have and will always care about her no matter what she does.

Good luck, I hope that works for you. But don't fool yourself in pretending that's all you can do and that you haven't done anything else wrong here.
It may or may not work depending on how her attitudes change over time.

Give it a 70% chance of working, and up to a 30% chance of losing your daughter if I'm right. Again, not because you weren't vegan, but because you were disrespectful and patronizing in refusing to engage with her on something she cares about. It doesn't matter how polite you are: patronizing is often very polite.
I'm trying to tell you that your perspective on this is likely very different from hers.

Buying/Eating meat is a choice, but it's not a personal choice, and she doesn't see it as a personal choice: it affects others negatively. It's not a non-issue to her, and if you're going to respect her you need to understand that and engage with it a bit. Again, it doesn't mean going vegan, but it means discussing it and taking these ethical issues seriously and considering whether it is in fact a good thing to go vegan.

If you can do that, then the chances of your maintaining a good relationship with your daughter are upwards of 99%.

You think I'm wrong for sure? Fine, take the gamble. I'm not really invested in this, I'm just giving my perspective as was asked.