Philosophical Vegan Forum

Jebus wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:25 am

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:46 pmhomosexuality isn't a trait that has lesser value.

I may be misunderstanding you but are you suggesting that there is no disadvantage to being homosexual compared to being heterosexual?

On a personal level, you will never accidentally get pregnant or get someone pregnant. On a societal level, if you live in the developing world, you are helping stop overpopulation that is harming the planet. If you live in the first world, if you want a child, you can help a child who is already in need through adoption.

EquALLity wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:13 amOn a personal level, you will never accidentally get pregnant or get someone pregnant. On a societal level, if you live in the developing world, you are helping stop overpopulation that is harming the planet. If you live in the first world, if you want a child, you can help a child who is already in need through adoption.

This is assuming that the homosexual doesn't engage in hetero sex. Many do and many choose to have children.

Either way, do you really want me to play the game of stacking up the positives against the negatives? You would lose badly.

Jebus wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:46 am

EquALLity wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:13 amOn a personal level, you will never accidentally get pregnant or get someone pregnant. On a societal level, if you live in the developing world, you are helping stop overpopulation that is harming the planet. If you live in the first world, if you want a child, you can help a child who is already in need through adoption.

This is assuming that the homosexual doesn't engage in hetero sex. Many do and many choose to have children.

Either way, do you really want me to play the game of stacking up the positives against the negatives? You would lose badly.

Yes, they can, which actually shows that they can still have children of their own genes if they wish to. So, that discounts a negative that most people think is apart of homosexuality.

Sure.

EquALLity wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:49 amshows that they can still have children of their own genes if they wish to. So, that discounts a negative that most people think is apart of homosexuality.

It is a negative for the individual (who gets married and has children in order to better fit into society) and for the world (most people are uneducated and we do not need them to be breeding).

Before I make a list of the negatives, why do you think depression and suicide is so much more common among homosexuals?

Jebus wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:13 pm

EquALLity wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:49 amshows that they can still have children of their own genes if they wish to. So, that discounts a negative that most people think is apart of homosexuality.

It is a negative for the individual (who gets married and has children in order to better fit into society) and for the world (most people are uneducated and we do not need them to be breeding).

Before I make a list of the negatives, why do you think depression and suicide is so much more common among homosexuals?

You're talking specifically about homosexuals who choose to do certain things due to societal pressure. That is not innate to homosexuality itself or the fault of the homosexual person. Also, I don't think most gay people in the developed world do this anymore.
Most gay people in the developed world, I think, don't do what you're describing, because society has become more accepting of homosexuality. So, by your logic of people having less kids being good, they are helping the world. Just in general, if you think about it logically, people who don't like having heterosexual sex are less likely to have kids. Even in the developing world, where people are pressured to have kids, they are still probably going to have less children. If this is negative of homosexuality, it's even more of a negative of heterosexuality.

It's more common due to society's disapproval of homosexuality.

EquALLity wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:21 pmYou're talking specifically about homosexuals who choose to do certain things due to societal pressure. That is not innate to homosexuality itself or the fault of the homosexual person.

Of course it's not innate to homosexuality or the fault of the individual. What's your point?

EquALLity wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:21 pmAlso, I don't think most gay people in the developed world do this anymore.

Most don't but many do. I don't know exactly how many but it is nevertheless a valid counter argument to your "positive" mention of homosexuals not having children.

EquALLity wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:21 pmMost gay people in the developed world, I think, don't do what you're describing, because society has become more accepting of homosexuality. So, by your logic of people having less kids being good, they are helping the world.

I'm not suggesting that this should not be in the "positives" column. I am saying that it should be in the "positives" column with an asterix.

EquALLity wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:21 pm It's more common due to society's disapproval of homosexuality.

Yes, and the fact that they are less happy should negate any need for me to make a negatives column.

Jebus wrote:Of course it's not innate to homosexuality or the fault of the individual. What's your point?

When I say homosexuality is not a disadvantage, I mean it's not a disadvantage in terms of what it itself results in. I don't consider society's homophobia to prove that homosexuality is a disadvantage in the way that I'm talking about.

The original comment by brim was that homosexuality is not a negative thing, and therefore it should not be used as an insult. I am agreeing with this by pointing out that it is not a negative thing innately, so it doesn't make sense to be an insult.
If your argument is that homosexuality is negative because of how society treats gay people, that doesn't prove why homosexuality should be used as an insult; it just proves that society is stupid.

To be clear... What I am saying about homosexuality is like if I were to say that race should not be used as an insult. Yes, being of a minority race is often a disadvantage due to racism, but being that race in and of itself is not a disadvantage, therefore it shouldn't be used as an insult.

Most don't but many do. I don't know exactly how many but it is nevertheless a valid counter argument to your "positive" mention of homosexuals not having children.

I don't think it proves my point wrong, because either way they have less children.

I'm not suggesting that this should not be in the "positives" column. I am saying that it should be in the "positives" column with an asterix.

I guess you can put an asterix there, but again, that's only an issue because of how society treats gay people.

Yes, and the fact that they are less happy should negate any need for me to make a negatives column.

Nope, because I'm not talking about how society treats gay people, I'm talking about homosexuality in and of itself.

Jebus wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:25 am

brimstoneSalad wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:46 pmhomosexuality isn't a trait that has lesser value.

I may be misunderstanding you but are you suggesting that there is no disadvantage to being homosexual compared to being heterosexual?

It's a question of innately lower value: whether our social notion of lower value is justified.

We can't use circular reasoning to say the trait has lower value because much of society assumes it has lower value and because of that we treat people with the trait worse and that makes people with the trait feel bad, thus the trait has lower value.

That could be applied to anything, including being a racial minority. The question is whether the insult is legitimate or not, and calling somebody/something "gay" or even "black" is not, because there's no reason to believe (minus that attitude) that it's innately negative. There are pros and cons, and it's not naturally clear which is better.

Not so for literal mental retardation.

When I raised the issue, I was thinking solely on the individual level. i.e. I am glad that I was born hetero and not homosexual. If one disregards the emotional stress on the individual which is mostly (but not entirely) caused by societal attitudes, I agree that there is nothing negative about homosexuality.