Why so many vegans in the US?

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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Why so many vegans in the US?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Soycrates wrote: I think you can make an argument that a word gathers its meaning from its general usage when that word is a part of the general lexicon and not a word created and maintained by a minority of people. Otherwise, you're basically saying that the majority has more right to the terminology and ideologies of the minority than they themselves do.
Semantics is a battlefield. Words affect not only how we speak and describe things, but also how we think and understand things.

When the original meaning seems to be a lost cause (or the original meaning isn't very useful), I generally fight for word meaning which is useful to accurately convey a concept, to prevent ambiguity or misunderstanding, but there's also an element of prudence when there are more than one competing and potentially coherent uses.

The meaning of Atheist and Agnostic is a big one today, which is slowly settling (and into something at least half-decent, although not what I would have liked it to mean).
We still have a few assholes like Chris from evilbible.com who insist that an atheist is only somebody who positively believes that no god exists, and rejects implicit/weak atheism as valid, but they seem to be falling by the wayside in favor of the more useful definition (both useful to understanding those who identify as Atheist, philosophically that its really a default position, and also more useful politically so we aren't seen as dogmatic ourselves and Atheism isn't taken as a religion).

The term "vegan" is also somewhat in flux, and we'll have a large part in determining how it lands, whether inclusive or exclusive, or more descriptively useful with prefixes as vegetarian and atheist ended up. How Volenta puts it above is probably how it will settle into common usage (outside and inside the community).

The lucky thing for us, whether atheist or vegan, is that the average Joe usually accepts correction on definition when it's explained to him by somebody who identifies as in that group. But it is worth thinking about not only what's descriptive, but what could be more useful to the movement itself in the long run -- and there's a calculus to that, which I don't think has been fully worked out yet.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Why so many vegans in the US?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Soycrates wrote: You didn't make any argument as to why these definitions are correct, you just stated them as if they should be. Why do you think this view of veganism is more valid than the one that states veganism is inherently a philosophy (based on some ethical principle) and not just a set of practices?
Because it's more useful. That is, IF it's more useful. But I suspect it is, and I can make a strong argument for it, because it normalizes the practice itself and widens the accessibility of veganism (and which has also been demonstrated to lead people into ethical veganism, once cognitive dissonance has been conquered by abstention for whatever other reason, thus making it possible for them to give themselves permission to think about the ethics without the overwhelming compulsion to rationalize their behavior).
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Volenta
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Re: Why so many vegans in the US?

Post by Volenta »

brimstoneSalad wrote:The meaning of Atheist and Agnostic is a big one today, which is slowly settling (and into something at least half-decent, although not what I would have liked it to mean).
We still have a few assholes like Chris from evilbible.com who insist that an atheist is only somebody who positively believes that no god exists, and rejects implicit/weak atheism as valid, but they seem to be falling by the wayside in favor of the more useful definition (both useful to understanding those who identify as Atheist, philosophically that its really a default position, and also more useful politically so we aren't seen as dogmatic ourselves and Atheism isn't taken as a religion).
You have no idea how many discussions and disagreements I've got over this one. It's so sad people won't accept the definitions of the academic circles, that fit so much better with what most atheists actually believe.
brimstoneSalad wrote:Because it's more useful. That is, IF it's more useful.
That's right, the way I just put it is a common way and also most corresponding with peoples views in practice. That is because there are different motivations people have, and ethics isn't even particularly standing out. Just look at the following chart about the motivation of vegetarians (I suspect it's approximately the same for veganism, but we could argue about that):
Image
Source: http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/2/5/523/htm
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Jebus
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Re: Why so many vegans in the US?

Post by Jebus »

Volenta wrote: There are dietary vegans and ethical vegans, but also environmental, aesthetic, etc.
I don't believe there is such a thing as a dietary vegan. To be vegan one must also abstain from consuming non-edible animal products which is something the "dietary vegan" has no reason to do. It would be correct to say that someone has a vegan diet, or that someone just ordered a vegan meal, but I seriously doubt Donald Watson would appreciate the term dietary vegan.

I usually don't like getting into semantics but I think this is important. I would hate to see non vegans start identifying themselves as vegans, in the same way that many non vegetarians like to call themselves vegetarians.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
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Re: Why so many vegans in the US?

Post by miniboes »

Jebus wrote:I don't believe there is such a thing as a dietary vegan. To be vegan one must also abstain from consuming non-edible animal products which is something the "dietary vegan" has no reason to do.
You provide arguments why a dietary vegan is not a vegan, which I can agree with, but that does not mean a dietary vegan cannot exist. If somebody follows a vegan diet, I think the term dietary vegan is fair enough; it indicates he/she is vegan in diet only.
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Volenta
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Re: Why so many vegans in the US?

Post by Volenta »

In addition to what miniboes said:
Like I said, a dietary vegan is a synonym of strict vegetarian. I also prefer to use the term strict vegetarian, but it is a term that is circulating.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Why so many vegans in the US?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

"Dietary vegan" is not terribly unlike "Sunday Christian"

They're not really vegan, but they are in respect to diet, which is all the term claims.

Qualifying a term like that is pretty much always valid, and it is in regards to every other group identity. I don't think there's much avoiding it, or that it would be useful to reject it -- that is, as long as people don't fail to qualify it.
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Jebus
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Re: Why so many vegans in the US?

Post by Jebus »

It seems to me that everyone who has posted here agrees that the term "dietary vegan" is widely used, and that most of us agree that it shouldn't be used.
I would worry about this term contaminating surveys as I want to know if and by how much the movement is growing. I'm sure most "dietary vegans" would tick yes to the question: Are you vegan? However, that would not be the case if the term strict vegetarian were exclusively used to describe them.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Why so many vegans in the US?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Jebus wrote:It seems to me that everyone who has posted here agrees that the term "dietary vegan" is widely used, and that most of us agree that it shouldn't be used.
I don't agree that it shouldn't be used, just that is isn't quite the same as a real vegan.
By people using the term, they help normalize veganism, which is good for us. Many celebrities are nothing more than dietary vegans, pretty much anybody who went vegan for health reasons... at least at first.

Once people stop eating animal products, as I said, the capacity to use reason to understand the ethics of animal abuse opens up, and they usually advance beyond that. I don't think not letting them use the term vegan is helpful to that end.
Jebus wrote:I would worry about this term contaminating surveys as I want to know if and by how much the movement is growing. I'm sure most "dietary vegans" would tick yes to the question: Are you vegan? However, that would not be the case if the term strict vegetarian were exclusively used to describe them.
Just survey people on their reasons for being vegan, and you'll get a more accurate picture.
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Jebus
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Re: Why so many vegans in the US?

Post by Jebus »

brimstonesalad. You seem to believe that the easy part of becoming vegan is the dietary part and once that step is taken the "dietary vegan" has a better chance at becoming a full on vegan. I believe nearly everyone who has tried to become vegan would agree that the dietary part is the hard part while it doesn't take to much effort avoiding silk, leather etc. A person who turns to a vegan diet for health reasons is already a selfish person and I don't believe he or she is much closer to becoming vegan than a full on carnivore.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
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