Philosophical Vegan Forum

andersonsb wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:06 pm This debate seems to be premised on the notion that IQ tests actually measure something worth measuring. But is this true? We have all observed that it's possible to be the so-called leader of the free world while simultaneously being arguably the dumbest person to set foot on the political stage for at least a few decades.

??? Is this supposed to mean that Trump acts like an idiot in office despite doing well on IQ tests (I doubt he has), or the fact that a country with a relatively average IQ (98) is capable of electing a president with such low IQ?

Jebus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:39 am I am aware of the criticism.
I don't pretend there is no criticism.
I disagree with the criticism.

Is that clear enough for you?

So then you agree that your earlier comment was wrong? You claimed there is no controversy.

Jebus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:39 am Couldn't you say that about all psychological tests? Should we exclude Psychology as a science altogether?

No, you couldn't and the fallibility of some hypothesis within psychology wouldn't negate the scientific value of the entire discipline.

Jebus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:39 am The tests have been reviewed and revised multiple times over the years. Are you familiar with item analysis? Any item on an IQ test where one group of people outscore another group of people relative to the overall scores have since long been removed.

Again, my point wasn't about intent. But in terms of "item analysis", its amusing that differential scores between groups on specific items would be considered problematic but not on the test as a whole.

Jebus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:39 am There is no doubt that the blacks (and perhaps the first Americans) were the groups that suffered the worst and most widespread amount of discrimination. However, wouldn't you expect to see at least some correlation with other groups that were ill treated at a lower level, such as the Irish, the Chinese, and the Japanese.

You're missing the point, you have to look at the causal relationships between the current generation and their ancestors. For example most Asians in the US aren't descendant from the Asians that were discriminated against prior to and during WW2. Past discrimination is primarily relevant when it impacted your family. The children of middle-class Chinese immigrants that came to the US in the 1980's aren't at any significant disadvantage because unrelated Chinese folks were discriminated against decades before their arrival.

Jebus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:39 am Why do you keep banging that point? I have been clear that I don't think jobs and promotions go to the best qualified people. I have said that they should go to the best qualified people.

Because its relevant to racial differences in material success.

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carnap wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:40 amYou claimed there is no controversy.

I studied psychology for six years (including graduate level psych testing) and never heard a professor suggest that IQ tests are invalid or unreliable. There is close to zero controversy within the psychological community. The controversy mainly comes from outside pundits not familiar with the science.

carnap wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:40 amYou're missing the point, you have to look at the causal relationships between the current generation and their ancestors. For example most Asians in the US aren't descendant from the Asians that were discriminated against prior to and during WW2. Past discrimination is primarily relevant when it impacted your family. The children of middle-class Chinese immigrants that came to the US in the 1980's aren't at any significant disadvantage because unrelated Chinese folks were discriminated against decades before their arrival.

So why do descendants of North American slavery score higher on IQ tests than Africans who are not descendants of slaves? What about the Irish? A vast majority of current Irish Americans are descendants of ill treated 19th and early 20th century immigrants?

I don't think you are even trying to be intellectually honest. Please read through the below exchange and at least try to understand why it is so frustrating debating with you:

Jebus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:43 amIn my opinion race should be left out of the discussion. Employment decisions, for example, should be entirely merit based, and anyone who makes assumptions, and ignores the large IQ variance that exists within each racial group is the one who should be labeled racist.

carnap wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:40 amAlso the idea that employment decisions or anything else in our economy is really "merit based" is a fiction

Jebus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:37 pmI wrote that it should be merit based.

carnap wrote: ↑Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:02 amBut its not which is just the issue.

Jebus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:20 amI know.

carnap wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:56 amif you think jobs and promotions go to the best qualified people you're not looking at the real world.

Jebus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:39 amWhy do you keep banging that point? I have been clear that I don't think jobs and promotions go to the best qualified people. I have said that they should go to the best qualified people.

carnap wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:56 am Because its relevant to racial differences in material success.

Jebus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:52 am I studied psychology for six years (including graduate level psych testing) and never heard a professor suggest that IQ tests are invalid or unreliable. There is close to zero controversy within the psychological community. The controversy mainly comes from outside pundits not familiar with the science.

What you've heard in classes isn't a reflection of what occurs in the scientific community. Not only is the topic of IQ testing just a tiny fraction of what is studied in psychology but professors at a given college tend to have similar focuses and points of view. In any case, so you've moved from no controversy to "close to zero" but there are a variety of scientists that have criticized IQ testing at various levels.

In any case,psychology is a very soft science so appeals to popularity are significantly less meaningful than in the hard sciences.

Jebus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:52 am So why do descendants of North American slavery score higher on IQ tests than Africans who are not descendants of slaves? What about the Irish? A vast majority of current Irish Americans are descendants of ill treated 19th and early 20th century immigrants?

I doubt that is the case, do you have a reference to a study that has evaluated this? But even if that were true, it wouldn't refute anything I've said. Firstly blacks don't originate from a single nation nor do they have a single culture but rather they originate from various African nations and cultures that have varying levels of poverty and social services. But generally speaking, a black person that was born in Africa has less resources available than one born in the US.

To make matters worse, being black isn't even genetically meaningful. Race is a social construct with little biological meaning, what we refer to as "black" refers to a large cluster of various ethnic groups that match certain physical figures.

Jebus wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:52 am I don't think you are even trying to be intellectually honest. Please read through the below exchange and at least try to understand why it is so frustrating debating with you.

This is just an attempt to attack me, if think I've misunderstood something you've said or made a bad argument you should clarify matters. In that exchange you're talking about what you think *should* be the case and I'm pointing out that the world doesn't confirm to that standard. Public policy should be rooted in how the world really works not how we wish it would work. I'm sure everyone would agree the world should lack racial discrimination, that everyone should have equal opportunity and so on but those aren't the realities on the ground.