C.I.A.- Torture and Lies?

[brimstoneSalad]

Didn't see this since you didn't put my screenname in the quote (no alert)

It seems like you kind of worked it out on your own while typing.

How can they not think of that as wrong?
Maybe, they could just not make the connection (but really, how?). And now that I think about it, my dad's situation could be dissonance too. But how do you determine which it is?

That's the million dollar question. You need to decide if you want to regard people as evil (which means you have no chance of reaching them), or give them the benefit of the doubt, and try to address the dissonance and delusions that are in the way of them doing the right thing.

Bite Size Vegan just made a video on a recent study on rationalization: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1Wplj6Fj6c
Not bad.

Melanie Joy's TEDx talk is probably better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0VrZPBskpg

You might just want to talk to him more, and use some Street Epistemology.

I thought it didn't cause damage, and I was asking mostly for confirmation on that, because I had a lingering suspicion that it might. But I looked it up, and apparently, it can often cause brain damage. So I guess that's afterwards, and so it doesn't really matter, because it's not real drowning (Or is it something else?)? But it still tricks the body into thinking it's drowning, so I'm confused.

I don't think the incidental (indirect) damage counts. That's more from long term oxygen deprivation, or psychological in nature.

[EquALLity]

That's the million dollar question. You need to decide if you want to regard people as evil (which means you have no chance of reaching them), or give them the benefit of the doubt, and try to address the dissonance and delusions that are in the way of them doing the right thing.

Ah, I see.

Melanie Joy's TEDx talk is probably better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0VrZPBskpg

Yeah, I've already seen that.

You might just want to talk to him more, and use some Street Epistemology.

I don't think my dad will ever be convinced.

I don't think the incidental (indirect) damage counts. That's more from long term oxygen deprivation, or psychological in nature.

I don't understand. Why wouldn't it count?

[brimstoneSalad]

I don't understand. Why wouldn't it count?

Does fear count? How about breathing, since oxygen causes oxidative damage and ultimately destroys tissue (which is a big part of ageing)?

You have to draw the line somewhere, and indirect or incidental damage seems to be a pretty good place.

[EquALLity]

I don't understand. Why wouldn't it count?

Does fear count? How about breathing, since oxygen causes oxidative damage and ultimately destroys tissue (which is a big part of ageing)?

You have to draw the line somewhere, and indirect or incidental damage seems to be a pretty good place.

How is fear even incidental? Is that not the entire point?

I think oxygen dep. Counts too. They're aware it's a consequence.

[brimstoneSalad]

How is fear even incidental? Is that not the entire point?

Fear is not pain. Pain is not fear. They're defined as different things.

You could have tissue damage and pain without being afraid, or be afraid without any tissue damage and pain.

Unless there's something wrong with your nerves, and excepting a few uncommon causes, pain and tissue damage are much more closely correlated.

I think oxygen dep. Counts too. They're aware it's a consequence.

Awareness of consequences is irrelevant, although most people aren't aware of that anyway. That's just not part of the definition.

[EquALLity]

Fear is not pain. Pain is not fear. They're defined as different things.

You could have tissue damage and pain without being afraid, or be afraid without any tissue damage and pain.

Unless there's something wrong with your nerves, and excepting a few uncommon causes, pain and tissue damage are much more closely correlated.

Ah, yeah.
It would be psychological torture, though.

Awareness of consequences is irrelevant, although most people aren't aware of that anyway. That's just not part of the definition.

The government knows.

What do you mean, it's not part of the definition? If it causes pain, I don't see why that matters if it's not the 'intention'.

[brimstoneSalad]

It would be psychological torture, though.

Sure, but that's something else. By default, torture indicates physical pain in nature. So, it's not technically torture, although it may be psychological torture.

What do you mean, it's not part of the definition? If it causes pain, I don't see why that matters if it's not the 'intention'.

The definition of pain.

[EquALLity]

The definition of pain.

What isn't part of the definition of pain?

I thought you were saying there was pain, but that it's not intentional, so it doesn't count?

[brimstoneSalad]

I thought you were saying there was pain, but that it's not intentional, so it doesn't count?

No. I think we got our wires crossed.

I was just saying intention doesn't make something painful when it would otherwise not be. It's either painful or not, and fear/panic is not painful (it's a different experience).
Physical torture, no. So, not technical torture (thus how the government can say it isn't). Psychological torture, definitely.

Of course, the government is relying on the ignorance of the public in saying that, because people may interpret that to mean it's not unpleasant or stressful, which would be deceptive.

[EquALLity]

I thought you were saying there was pain, but that it's not intentional, so it doesn't count?

No. I think we got our wires crossed.

I was just saying intention doesn't make something painful when it would otherwise not be. It's either painful or not, and fear/panic is not painful (it's a different experience).
Physical torture, no. So, not technical torture (thus how the government can say it isn't). Psychological torture, definitely.

Of course, the government is relying on the ignorance of the public in saying that, because people may interpret that to mean it's not unpleasant or stressful, which would be deceptive.

Ah, I see. I was never saying intention doesn't make something painful. I was saying that the fact it can cause physical damage makes it painful.

Why don't you agree?