Direct Source VS Open Source (100% JavaScript single page mobile browser extension +GAS +espruino)

[TelepathyConspiracy]

Not true, you're talking as if you write the whole thing all at once and then start debugging instead of what is much more sensible such as debugging in smaller steps, usually function by function as you go

Well, test-driven development is probably a good thing, but it does not at all guarantee that your programs are bug-free. I was doing test-driven development when writing the tokenizer and the parser of my AEC-to-WebAssembly compiler in C++ (those tests are run before compilation), and nevertheless there were some bugs left in them. And for at least one of those bugs, using a more sane language than C++ would have helped me avoid that bugs.

You're trying to suggest C++ programs never have bugs... A bug is more than mistyped variable names... Anything unintended is a bug... The compiler cannot do the debugging process for you, to die on the compiler hill in the year 2023 is hilarious at best and bad faith at worst...

Reassigning console.log to something that renders on the app, such as my Um2MAk, makes the first go around easier if that's what you're saying...

No, that's not what I am saying at all. My point is that, for many bugs in your app, you are not even AWARE that they exist.

Not sorry, your joke is stupid

It's the best for the world we actually live in (all environments, historical success, V8 heavy lifting, GAS heavy lifting, etc) and the argument was that any marginal improvement isn't worth it in terms of making things as simple as possible for beginners...

Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say here. I don't even know what those terms (V8, GAS...)

Heavy lifting from V8 is acknowledging the absolute bullshit you're talking about with compilers and heavy lifting from GAS is about the absolute networking magic of Google's serverless IDE

These newer versions of JavaScript, they're adding features that are redundant and serve nothing but creating different conventions that make things harder to read...

There you go, criticizing the features of newer versions of JavaScript and other languages without even trying to understand the problems they are trying to solve.

Not true, you just didn't understand the relevance, for example your next point

"const" and "let" do not add anything whatsoever

Yes, they do. "Let" solves the problem of unintentionally-function-scoped variables

Scope is a stupid roadblock that should be avoided with the meta "g" object in the topmost global scope... Never add a variable outside of the "g" unless it's some temp for slicing arrays or whatever...

and "const" solves the problem of unintentionally modifying a variable that's not supposed to be modified.

That doesn't add anything if you use my "G" and "g" object convention and was merely a concession because of the global scope having APIs they didn't want written over...

Btw w3schools is often the best at cutting through the bullshit, much better than Mozilla

It really isn't. There is a reason why new features such as "const" and "let" were added to JavaScript. Why do you think they would be added otherwise?

It's there to fill in the shelves to create a psychological impression of needed complexity that was bullied in from that asinine compiler blablabla

Because people making the standards (primarily from Google and Mozilla) are stupid?

It's stupid if you're not disingenuous about wanting to lower the threshold for the barrier to entry so everyone can be a coder with a Turing complete language that is available in every environment... Makes much more sense from the other bad faith interpretation of "code"... Aka they're making it deliberately difficult which is evil

Since the tutorials at w3schools do not use them, they are bad tutorials that teach bad practices. So you are not only using a bad language that is JavaScript, you are also following bad practices within it.

I have genuinely debunked each and every one of your points but you're going to continue with negative social engineering type statements...

And are criticizing others for using the new features of JavaScript without even understanding the problems those new features are supposed to solve.

Genuinely, I've gone through it all, none of the new stuff adds value (exception is the string convention where ` spans across multiple lines), callbacks are a great convention and just so happens to be there from the beginning of when I started with JS at least... (Not 100% on if the absolute first version had them but whatever)

everything is organized into the single page

I hope you are not actually putting your entire program in a single file. That makes collaboration almost impossible. Not to mention it's hard to read.

Hilarious how the reverse is true, my localHTMLexecutable feature makes it as easy as possible for beginners to get involved... What you're talking about are projects from people who committed themselves to other languages before JS was the obvious choice but still, as I said before, if you're ever able to put together a web assembly terminal compiler where you can direct source your code on the web too I'd be interested in adding it to Um2MAk

I haven't used cloud shell in a while and am still on my mobile but next time I visit the library I'll give it a try and let you know otherwise maybe you can compile the html for me? Not sure why it can't be shared like normal html files already compiled but you can let me know

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/doc ... /C_to_wasm

[teo123]

The compiler cannot do the debugging process for you, to die on the compiler hill in the year 2023 is hilarious at best and bad faith at worst...

Please try very hard to understand this: One of the goals of programming language design is that, if a program in that programming language compiles, it probably works. C is very far from that goal. JavaScript is slightly closer to that goal, but not a lot. C++ is a lot closer to that goal. Rust and Haskell come very close, albeit at the expense (especially Haskell) of not being beginner-friendly.

Scope is a stupid roadblock that should be avoided with the meta "g" object in the topmost global scope... Never add a variable outside of the "g" unless it's some temp for slicing arrays or whatever...

OK, I am going to explain to you, as clearly as I possibly can, what is the problem that "let" solves, as apparently nobody did.
Suppose you want to write a function that will return a n*m matrix filled with zeros. In C++, you may do it like this:

Code: Select all

vector<vector<int>> matrixFilledWithZeros(int n, int m) {
  vector<vector<int>> ret;
  for (int i=0; i<n; i++)
  {
    vector<int> tmp;
    for (int i=0; i<m; i++)
      tmp.push_back(0);
    ret.push_back(tmp);
  }
  return ret;
}

Suppose you want to do the same thing in JavaScript. Somebody who comes from C++ and knows only basic JavaScript might try to do it like this:

Code: Select all

function matrixFilledWithZeros(n, m)
{
  var ret = [];
  for (var i=0; i<n; i++)
  {
    var tmp = [];
    for (var i=0; i<m; i++)
      tmp.push(0);
    ret.push(tmp);
  }
  return ret;
}

But that would be an infinite loop. However, in new JavaScript, we can use "let" instead of "var", like this:

Code: Select all

function matrixFilledWithZeros(n, m)
{
  let ret = [];
  for (let i=0; i<n; i++)
  {
    let tmp = [];
    for (let i=0; i<m; i++)
      tmp.push(0);
    ret.push(tmp);
  }
  return ret;
}

And, now, the function works, like in C++.
I didn't run into that problem, but it's actually rather surprising that I didn't.
And, once again, you are criticizing the features of new JavaScript, as well as other programming languages, without having an at least basic understanding of the problems they are trying to solve. Makes me wonder if that's what we anarchists sound like to the statists.

I have genuinely debunked each and every one of your points but you're going to continue with negative social engineering type statements...

No, you've just shown you don't know what you are talking about.

[TelepathyConspiracy]

The compiler cannot do the debugging process for you, to die on the compiler hill in the year 2023 is hilarious at best and bad faith at worst...

Please try very hard to understand this: One of the goals of programming language design is that, if a program in that programming language compiles, it probably works.

Transparently frivolous, as I already said, bugs are anything unintended

Scope is a stupid roadblock that should be avoided with the meta "g" object in the topmost global scope... Never add a variable outside of the "g" unless it's some temp for slicing arrays or whatever...

OK, I am going to explain to you, as clearly as I possibly can, what is the problem that "let" solves, as apparently nobody did.

Why do you have to be abusively stupid?

Suppose you want to write a function that will return a n*m matrix filled with zeros.

It's like you're trying to fail... Yes if you redefine i inside a for loop with another for loop it won't work... That isn't a bug with the language because it's doing something sensible... I usually use v,hs,w,a... for loops (it's inherently arbitrary so I use "vegan haven seattle washington" for the thing in my mind, i sounds like you're the thing looping lol)

Code: Select all

function matrixFilledWithZeros(n, m)
{
  var list = [], temp;
  for (var v = 0; v < n; v++)
  {
    temp = [];
    for (var h = 0; h < m; h++) {
      temp.push(0);
    }
    list.push(temp);
  }
  return list;
}

No, you've just shown you don't know what you are talking about.

The only thing you've shown is your argument is transparently frivolous

[teo123]

Hilarious how the reverse is true, my localHTMLexecutable feature makes it as easy as possible for beginners to get involved...

OK, a serious question: Have you ever tried merging two versions of your code, one yours and one from your contributor?
In our Object Oriented Development (RPPOON - Razvoj Programske Podrške po Objektno Orijentiranim Načelima) classes, we were taught that, ideally, a file should contain at most 100 lines of code. Now, I am not following that rule (some of my files have more than 1000 lines of code), as it is difficult to follow, but I understand why we were taught that: because merging two versions of a long file is tedious and error-prone.

Not sure why it can't be shared like normal html files already compiled but you can let me know

It has to do with sandboxing. Like I've written on my blog:

And, if you are going to try to run the `analogClock.html` file in a browser, please note it will not work unless you are using a web server such as `php -S 127.0.0.1:8080`. It has to do with sandboxing and external WebAssembly not being trusted by browsers. If you are running untrusted WebAssembly (not produced by the JavaScript compiler in the browser itself) from your harddrive, the JavaScript Virtual Machine cannot be sandboxed not to read or modify or delete the data on your harddrive. That is why contemporary web-browsers disallow that (just like, when JavaScript was in its infancy, browsers did not allow JavaScript on your harddrive to be run without your explicit permission). If you are running WebAssembly from a web server, it can be sandboxed so that it cannot harm your computer.

That's one of the disadvantages of WebAssembly over `asm.js`. Still, WebAssembly is so much better than `asm.js` that `asm.js` got deprecated. That's not a significant drawback, because, like its name says, WebAssembly is supposed to be living on the web.

Transparently frivolous, as I already said, bugs are anything unintended

OK, what do you think, why has Rust been the most loved programming language for the last few years on the StackOverflow survey of developers? I think the main reason is that Rust is such a language that, if a program written in it compiles, it probably works. Of course, that's not the only thing that matters in a language, as Haskell arguably comes even closer to that goal, and Haskell is less loved by developers, but that's a thing that matters to developers a lot. It's a lot easier to fix a compile-time error than to spend a lot of time searching for and fixing bugs that could be prevented by using a sane language.

It's like you're trying to fail...

No, it's like I've written idiomatic C++ and I am translating it literally to JavaScript. Ideally, the program should just work. Issuing a compile-time error, like Rust does, is acceptable. What's not acceptable is that the program fails mysteriously, like it does in JavaScript.

The only thing you've shown is your argument is transparently frivolous

Look, decades of software engineering have shown that programs written in statically-typed languages such as C++ tend to have fewer bugs than programs written in dynamically typed languages such as JavaScript. You are in no place to contradict that. All that you can show is that you are an inexperienced and arrogant beginner who is falling for Dunning-Krugger effect, even worse than I used to be a few years ago.

[TelepathyConspiracy]

Hilarious how the reverse is true, my localHTMLexecutable feature makes it as easy as possible for beginners to get involved...

OK, a serious question: Have you ever tried merging two versions of your code, one yours and one from your contributor?

No, I'm currently being oppressed by telepathic warlords that have enslaved humanity (not a joke) else there would be more interest and less deliberate difficulties... I do however have experience updating the public version of Um2MAk and my private browser extension and as I've been using my super simple convention of a tab object with html and js functions it's super simple to copy paste into the corresponding file... This is where you don't seem to understand the relevance of the difference in designs... Using Ace to hierarchically organize your functions into objects makes navigation extremely easy whereas your 100-1000 lines dogma is from ancient days where you have to scroll ridiculous amounts to get anywhere...

Btw I do want to point out that I believe my localHTMLexecutable should be the new standard for students in school... Put everything in there and share the html file with your current homework assignment set as the landing page... After four years of school you should have a lot to show for it, instead most leave with nothing but a diploma

Not sure why it can't be shared like normal html files already compiled but you can let me know

It has to do with sandboxing.

and why can't it be iframed?

Transparently frivolous, as I already said, bugs are anything unintended

OK, what do you think, why has Rust been the most loved programming language for the last few years on the StackOverflow survey of developers?

Love isn't a good metric for this because you're talking about culture and people with Stockholm Syndrome who have a financial incentive to not be honest... Look at the most known language... That's JS

It's a lot easier to fix a compile-time error than to spend a lot of time searching for and fixing bugs that could be prevented by using a sane language.

It's like you're sharing marketing slogans for people who have no experience with dev tools ... Dev tools will always tell you when you try to execute code with an undefined variable... How much "time" do you save with compilers vs dev tools?

It's like you're trying to fail...

No, it's like I've written idiomatic C++ and I am translating it literally to JavaScript. Ideally, the program should just work. Issuing a compile-time error, like Rust does, is acceptable. What's not acceptable is that the program fails mysteriously, like it does in JavaScript.

I believe there was some update to dev tools to handle infinite loops... Forcing newborns to learn your ancient arbitrary scope tricks instead of the more sensible concept of not redefining variables is absurd and that's really what this conversation is about, elders have the burden to relearn, newbies should not and the vast majority will be new....

The only thing you've shown is your argument is transparently frivolous

Look, decades of software engineering have shown that programs written in statically-typed languages such as C++ tend to have fewer bugs than programs written in dynamically typed languages such as JavaScript. You are in no place to contradict that.

Correlation does not equal causation, C++ is written, often, by 20 year veterans... JS is written, often, by infants (lol)... AND you're talking about it as if you're comparing different stages of development, JS deploys immediately and C++ has to wait for compilers, that shouldn't be considered a good thing for your argument but you insist it is... I didn't choose JS, JS is the obvious...

Reminds me of another point to my argument, tutorials on the web (webassembly is a perfect example) are written to be deliberately difficult, aka it really could be as simple as a single copy/paste into a terminal where it downloads a file and runs it like a script that then calls commands with automated options and everything ... Instead you have to go step by step even for the hello world ...

[teo123]

I'm currently being oppressed by telepathic warlords that have enslaved humanity

What do you mean?

Using Ace to hierarchically organize your functions into objects makes navigation extremely easy

What is Ace? How do you mean "hierarchically organize functions into objects"?

whereas your 100-1000 lines dogma is from ancient days where you have to scroll ridiculous amounts to get anywhere

If files are 100 lines of code, you probably don't even have to scroll.

Put everything in there and share the html file with your current homework assignment set as the landing page...

Seriously, dude? That professors need to look through thousands of lines of code to see the source code of your homework?

After four years of school you should have a lot to show for it, instead most leave with nothing but a diploma

I think employers don't tend to care about your homework. You should not put your homework on your GitHub profile or anything similar to that. Still, I cannot quite be trusted on that, as I put a lot of effort into my GitHub profile and I am still not able to get an entry-level job.

and why can't it be iframed?

How exactly would that help?

Love isn't a good metric for this because you're talking about culture and people with Stockholm Syndrome who have a financial incentive to not be honest...

Well, there have been some attempts to objectively measure productivity of programming languages. In all of them, as far as I know, C scores the worst, with JavaScript scoring the second-worst or third-worst. Languages such as SmallTalk tend to score the best in those studies.

Look at the most known language... That's JS

Well, like I've written on my blog:

You will gain next-to-no experience with that at the university, as the programming tools used at the university are different from the programming tools used in real life. JavaScript, for example, is taught very little at the university, and it is the most popular programming language these days, and will likely remain so in the future. Not because it is a good language, in fact, it is widely agreed to be an exceptionally poorly designed language, full of quirks which programmers need to spend a lot of time learning to use it effectively. It is the most popular programming language because of the technicallity that, in order to make your application run in an Internet browser, for most of the time the Internet has existed, there was no alternative. WebAssembly will replace a part of JavaScript, but probably not most of it. At the university, you will gain a lot of experience with programming languages such as MatLab, which is almost never used for software development in the real world, and is also very different from the languages used in the real world.

It's like you're sharing marketing slogans for people who have no experience with dev tools

Well, I am also not very proficient with developer tools in browsers.

Dev tools will always tell you when you try to execute code with an undefined variable...

No, they will not. Outside of the strict mode, this will execute without an error message:

Code: Select all

mistypedVariableName=1;

That will create a global variable with the name "mistypedVariableName".
And even in strict mode, this will execute without an error message:

Code: Select all

"use strict";
const person= {
  firstName:"Teo",
  lastName:"Samarzija"
};
console.log("Hello, "+person.name+"!");

This will output "Hello, undefined!". In a sane language, that will result in a compile-time error.

Forcing newborns to learn your ancient arbitrary scope tricks

Well, in our RPPOON classes, we were taught that variables should have as small scope as possible, and that programs should, ideally, have no global variables. I mostly follow that. In my AEC-to-WebAssembly compiler, I have only one global variable, "compilation_target".

Correlation does not equal causation

But the causation is obvious here. Or at least it should be obvious. Many things which are bugs in JavaScript are compile-time errors in C++.

[TelepathyConspiracy]

I'm currently being oppressed by telepathic warlords that have enslaved humanity

What do you mean?

Evil is realhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TspYd1kdx4g

Using Ace to hierarchically organize your functions into objects makes navigation extremely easy

What is Ace? How do you mean "hierarchically organize functions into objects"?

Please actually look through goo.gl/Um2MAk that explains a lot

Put everything in there and share the html file with your current homework assignment set as the landing page...

Seriously, dude? That professors need to look through thousands of lines of code to see the source code of your homework?

Lol you aren't going to get it until you look at Um2MAk... Also I believe the editor auto unfolds and scrolls for you, just debugged the desktop version but no promises, mobile first

After four years of school you should have a lot to show for it, instead most leave with nothing but a diploma

I think employers don't tend to care about your homework.

You should care about your homework, I use my app as much as it's for others

You should not put your homework on your GitHub profile or anything similar to that. Still, I cannot quite be trusted on that, as I put a lot of effort into my GitHub profile and I am still not able to get an entry-level job.

I am also looking for employment opportunities but I will give your profile a more fair look tomorrow or the next day when I'm back to a normal routine...
Btw my theory of what would actually be wanted was a browser extension for PETA to fully utilize their volunteers through social media, seems absurd that they have trolls commenting on their posts without there being a wave of vegan counter activity ...

and why can't it be iframed?

How exactly would that help?

Iframes cannot access anything from the page rendering them unless they use special messaging APIs... It is a sandbox...

Dev tools will always tell you when you try to execute code with an undefined variable...

No, they will not. Outside of the strict mode, this will execute without an error message:

Code: Select all

mistypedVariableName=1;

That will create a global variable with the name "mistypedVariableName".
And even in strict mode, this will execute without an error message:

Code: Select all

"use strict";
const person= {
  firstName:"Teo",
  lastName:"Samarzija"
};
console.log("Hello, "+person.name+"!");

This will output "Hello, undefined!". In a sane language, that will result in a compile-time error.

This is sensible behavior and actually shows you don't even need "var"... Undefined is the same as false or zero so if you're using my "G" and "g" convention and then want to see if something is defined

Code: Select all

if (g.mistypedVariableName) console.log(g.mistypedVariableName)
else g.mistypedVariableName = "blablabla";

it works as expected

Forcing newborns to learn your ancient arbitrary scope tricks

Well, in our RPPOON classes, we were taught that variables should have as small scope as possible, and that programs should, ideally, have no global variables.

Using the "G" and "g" convention in the topmost global scope maintains this idealism (even though it's not needed as long as you don't try to rewrite browser defined variables) except it then let's you not have normal scoping problems... I believe the fear of overriding variables was because of their zillions of tiny files convention where someday a file will be added that didn't compensate for some previous files declarations... Everything in a single file is best

[teo123]

Evil is real

Sorry, I have watched your video, but I don't understand it at all. Like, I don't even vaguely see the arguments you are making. Maybe it has to do with me not knowing English very well, but...
By the way, I think psychiatry indeed helped me with my psychotic disorder. It doesn't do miracles, but I am afraid to stop taking Risperidone.

Please actually look through

Sorry, I have looked through it, but I don't understand it at all. I guess that's how non-programmers feel when they bump into my Arithmetic Expression Compiler.

I am also looking for employment opportunities

I think the last thing the employers want is somebody who has weird ideas about programming, like you do. For example, putting everything in a single file. Sorry, but other developers have no experience using Ace and similar things to navigate very large files. At least for other developers, don't do that.

Btw my theory of what would actually be wanted was a browser extension for PETA to fully utilize their volunteers through social media, seems absurd that they have trolls commenting on their posts without there being a wave of vegan counter activity ...

How would that actually work? And why would you want to defend PETA on social media? As far as I understand it, PETA is a fraudulent organization that pretends to be helping animals, but doesn't actually do that. And which keeps spreading misinformation such as milk causing autism and that methionine you eat plays a significant role in your cholesterol levels (which I used to believe up until recently).

Iframes cannot access anything from the page rendering them unless they use special messaging APIs... It is a sandbox...

To me it seems like you know almost nothing about how browsers work. I mean, I don't know the details, but at least I understand that, when you run JavaScript or WebAssembly from the hard-drive, the JavaScript virtual machine cannot be sandboxed not to access the data from the harddrive. That's why, when JavaScript was in its infancy, and JavaScript virtual machines were full of flaws, browsers did not allow JavaScript to be executed from harddrive without the user permission.

This is sensible behavior and actually shows you don't even need "var"...

It just isn't. Not when you are developing a large program. Tell me, what do you think, why was the strict mode added to JavaScript? In my PicoBlaze Simulator in JavaScript, I was using strict mode for almost everything.

[TelepathyConspiracy]

Evil is real

Sorry, I have watched your video, but I don't understand it at all. Like, I don't even vaguely see the arguments you are making. Maybe it has to do with me not knowing English very well, but...
By the way, I think psychiatry indeed helped me with my psychotic disorder. It doesn't do miracles, but I am afraid to stop taking Risperidone.

Did you get the idea of it being a "preponderance of evidence"? Btw you should watch the whole thing from Stefan, very important
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AnqoAlD8PmI
just assuming the premise, would you agree it's an uncivil and unfree society that will FOREVER lie about it while telling people trans is the new status quo?

Please actually look through

Sorry, I have looked through it, but I don't understand it at all.

Do you get the idea that it's much easier to organize lots of code? Look at the left hand side and see how the line numbers increase rapidly

I am also looking for employment opportunities

I think the last thing the employers want is somebody who has weird ideas about programming, like you do.

It really is unfortunate that you are so abusively stupid by default

Btw my theory of what would actually be wanted was a browser extension for PETA to fully utilize their volunteers through social media, seems absurd that they have trolls commenting on their posts without there being a wave of vegan counter activity ...

How would that actually work?

Maybe we can talk about it when you stop being abusive

Iframes cannot access anything from the page rendering them unless they use special messaging APIs... It is a sandbox...

To me it seems like you know almost nothing about how browsers work. I mean, I don't know the details, but at least I understand that, when you run JavaScript or WebAssembly from the hard-drive, the JavaScript virtual machine cannot be sandboxed not to access the data from the harddrive. That's why, when JavaScript was in its infancy, and JavaScript virtual machines were full of flaws, browsers did not allow JavaScript to be executed from harddrive without the user permission.

Well you're wrong, but hey, prove me wrong, send me a link to an iframe that can access the hard drive without me explicitly letting it do so...

[teo123]

Btw you should watch the whole thing from Stefan, very important

OK, I will watch it when I have time. Still, I am not very interested in it, as it seems to me you guys are trying to replace psychiatry with some modern-day version of the demonic possession theory. There is a reason why those demonic possession theories were rejected back in ancient times.

Do you get the idea that it's much easier to organize lots of code? Look at the left hand side and see how the line numbers increase rapidly

My impression is that it's very confusing to developers who are used to using traditional text editors.

Well you're wrong, but hey, prove me wrong, send me a link to an iframe that can access the hard drive without me explicitly letting it do so...

Come on now! Your stupidity makes me cry! Your ignorance of computer science (not only software engineering) is so pervasive... Of course you are not supposed to be able to access the hard drive data from JavaScript without the user permission, even if you run JavaScript from the hard drive. We are talking about bugs in JavaScript virtual machines. If I remember correctly, back in Internet Explorer 4 era, there was a bug that literally allowed a malicious JavaScript run from harddrive to corrupt the file system. That's why early versions of Internet Explorer did not allow JavaScript to be executed from the hard drive without the user permission. Now that JavaScript virtual machines are way more mature, browsers do allow that. What they don't allow, however, is to run WebAssembly from the harddrive. Why? Well, if JavaScript virtual machines were simply interpreting WebAssembly, there would not be as much risk. But that's not what JavaScript virtual machines inside browsers are doing. They are compiling WebAssembly into machine code. So there could quite plausibly be some esoteric sequence of WebAssembly instructions that will manipulate JavaScript virtual machine into accessing the data on the hard drive. Is it likely? No, it is not. Most likely, if there is a bug in those WebAssembly-to-machine-code converters inside those JavaScript virtual machines in browsers, it will result in the "illegal instruction" error. But is it possible? It absolutely is. That's why browsers are not allowing WebAssembly to be executed from harddrive for now. Most likely, when WebAssembly is more mature, they will. But right now, it's obviously not a good idea, or else browser makers would allow it, they aren't stupid.