Philosophical Vegan Forum

eloine wrote:something I started to wonder about vegan nutrition, how can I get enough DHA-EPA? and isn't it higly recommended to get some Taurine, Creatinine, Carnitine, Carnosine?

Your body makes all of those things by itself. You just need to eat enough protein (the essential amino acids) and healthy essential fatty acids for your body to use as materials to make them.

Just be sure you have a good source of Omega 3, and your body should make all needed DHA/EPA.

If you want to, you can take a supplement of DHA. The vegan supplements are made from algae, which is the original source.

eloine wrote:keep on eating food full of pesticides if you think it is healthy and good luck
when you get a cancer you will think it came from the organic produce hahahahah

This is not a very nice thing to say.

About the scientists, they are human beings, and they care about people. They won't be paid off so simply to harm people.
The idea that the scientists are conspiring and taking bribes and give people cancer is a conspiracy theory.

Please read this thread, to understand about conspiracy theories:
http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1829

Organic is a big business too: they make huge amounts of money selling certification, and the markup on organic food is incredible.
Big organic funds propaganda against healthy vegetables grown other ways, and this harms people and the environment. It's one of the most evil industries in the world.

The reality is that organic also uses pesticide, but they use very old pesticides which are considered "natural", however, these pesticides are more dangerous because they're less effective so they have to be sprayed in larger amounts.

https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html

When you test synthetic chemicals for their ability to cause cancer, you find that about half of them are carcinogenic.
Until recently, nobody bothered to look at natural chemicals (such as organic pesticides), because it was assumed that they posed little risk. But when the studies were done, the results were somewhat shocking: you find that about half of the natural chemicals studied are carcinogenic as well.

This is a case where everyone (consumers, farmers, researchers) made the same, dangerous mistake. We assumed that "natural" chemicals were automatically better and safer than synthetic materials, and we were wrong. It's important that we be more prudent in our acceptance of "natural" as being innocuous and harmless.

ORGANIC PESTICIDES VERSUS SYNTHETIC PESTICIDES

Clearly, the less we impact our environment, the better off we all are. Organic farming practices have greatly advanced the use of non-chemical means to control pests, as mentioned earlier.
Unfortunately, these non-chemical methods do not always provide enough protection, and it's necessary to use chemical pesticides. How do organic pesticides compare with conventional pesticides?

A recent study compared the effectiveness of a rotenone-pyrethrin mixture versus a synthetic pesticide, imidan. Rotenone and pyrethrin are two common organic pesticides; imidan is considered a "soft" synthetic pesticide (i.e., designed to have a brief lifetime after application, and other traits that minimize unwanted effects). It was found that up to 7 applications of the rotenone- pyrethrin mixture were required to obtain the level of protection provided by 2 applications of imidan.

It seems unlikely that 7 applications of rotenone and pyrethrin are really better for the environment than 2 applications of imidan, especially when rotenone is extremely toxic to fish and other aquatic life.

It should be noted, however, that we don't know for certain which system is more harmful. This is because we do not look at organic pesticides the same way that we look at conventional pesticides. We don't know how long these organic pesticides persist in the environment, or the full extent of their effects.

When you look at lists of pesticides allowed in organic agriculture, you find warnings such as, "Use with caution. The toxicological effects of [organic pesticide X] are largely unknown," or "Its persistence in the soil is unknown." Again, researchers haven't bothered to study the effects of organic pesticides because it is assumed that "natural" chemicals are automatically safe.

Conventional treatments are well studied and tested, organic pesticides are found to be just as dangerous on average, and are used in larger amounts. You can not trust organic food: it's dangerous to your health. It's also more expensive, because it wastes land and resources, and the organic lobby is either delusional or outright lies to promote itself and fear monger against the competition, destroying the environment and threatening human health in the process.

Also read this:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/httpblogsscientificamericancomscience-sushi20110718mythbusting-101-organic-farming-conventional-agriculture/

eloine wrote:I think you missunderstood, claude bourguignon doesn't support biodynamic, this is the big industrial groups that say he support this to make him less trustable and his scientific research less valuable

It's your word against many of his critics. Can you prove this? Can you show me a quote from him which criticizes or disavows support of biodynamics?
Does he also not support Organic? Remember, organic also uses pesticide -- does he oppose these equally?

Many of the claims he has made have been alarmist, without evidence, and flagrantly wrong.

eloine wrote:in fact it's the opposite! all the non organic food is really dangerous, since they can put what they want and then they just pay scientifics to say that their food is not dangerous, "ecocert" is one of the organic labels that certified organic quality and environnement protection

That's completely false. Conventional production can not use whatever they want: pesticides and herbicides are highly regulated, and many have been banned because scientists have found that they were dangerous. Only the safest and most effective ones are allowed.

It's actually the opposite of what you say: "natural" pesticides, which are also highly toxic, are not properly regulated. They can be used in huge amounts, and without any testing because they are "natural". As in the article I quotes, regulators ignore these substances, despite them often causing cancer when tested.

Both the toxic pesticides, Rotenone and Pyrethrin, are allowed by ecocert: http://www.ecocert.com/sites/default/files/u3/Ecocert_Organic_Standard.pdf
See Annex II

Organic pesticides are used in larger amounts, and they are more harmful to the environment. Because of the amounts, they're also bound to be more harmful to human health.
Ecocert is an evil syndicate, made for profit only, at the expense of human health and the environment. They are dogmatic and delusional fear mongers at best. They deceive the public into believing they use no pesticides, despite the fact that they frequently use MORE pesticide, and those pesticides are more damaging to the environment, and pose a greater risk to human health.

brimstoneSalad wrote:

eloine wrote:something I started to wonder about vegan nutrition, how can I get enough DHA-EPA? and isn't it higly recommended to get some Taurine, Creatinine, Carnitine, Carnosine?

Your body makes all of those things by itself. You just need to eat enough protein (the essential amino acids) and healthy essential fatty acids for your body to use as materials to make them.

Just be sure you have a good source of Omega 3, and your body should make all needed DHA/EPA.

If you want to, you can take a supplement of DHA. The vegan supplements are made from algae, which is the original source.

there are many studies that proves the opposite, that it's very hard for the body to convert DHA and EPA from ALA and especially as you grow older, because the body becomes less efficient as we age
and carnosine and creatinie help you grow old slower and it's true that all the vegan people I met my life always looked very much older their age and became old very fast because carnosine and taurine and creatinine help collagen to build + stop AGE and glycation

"It's your word against many of his critics. Can you prove this? Can you show me a quote from him which criticizes or disavows support of biodynamics?
Does he also not support Organic? Remember, organic also uses pesticide -- does he oppose these equally?"

well there is nothing where he says anything good about biodynamics..it is mostly other stupid scientifcs that accuse him to be into biodynamicwith no proof of it hahah so I think it prooves he doesn't care about pseudo science either lol
all I know is that he is very quailified, and experienced and worked for a long time for big compagnies

Then I don't take his word for granted either, but his researchs are interesting and has good morality

but honeslty I think if really you believe that vegetables full of pesticides are harmless and healthy and good for you, you should just keep on eating them, you are probably lucky enough to not be sensitive to the side effect it can give you to eat strawberries or apples that are not organic ( it gives me huge headaches, but I never had such headaches with organics fruits and I don't base myself on pseudo science but my own feelings) then eveyrone is different, some people can eat huge amounts of pesticides and don't feel any side effects just like some people can live among the dirt without becoming sick, so i think that if you believe it is good for you you should just keep on eating them !!! nobody told you to try to change your habits but it is pointless really to try to convince other people that your way of thinking is the ultimate truth, you don't know any better than anyone, you are just full of pesticides lol

but anyway the only ultimate way is to grow your own vegetables, it is cheaped and at least you know what you put on it.

honestly this forum is pointless, seems the people here are just the kind of assholes vegan people that most people can't stand, because they are just here to try to piss you off all the time by wanting to prove you are wrong in everything, (if you say you use to be depressive they gonna focus on it saying that you should go to a therapist and take medecines, this is what everybody with common sence would agree to call an "asshole behavior!!! and then , as if it was not enough to make you feel miserable for fighting depression (like many people do) every discusssion is just impossible because they seems to like to denigrate everyone) honestly not eating meat dont make you any better than anyone so stop being so full of yourself, the things you believe in is nothing really worth, you are not any better than anyone else on earth and you don't know any better I don't know what is your problem people but obviously not eating meat made you loose compassion, just like this stupid vegan couple: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLAFI1axjLk
that can disgust everybody on earth to turn vegan, they got all the worse human defaults, umcompassionated, jealous, pretentious, hypocrits and unbearable and judging everyone else ...anyway, I think I cancel my account on this forum because I don't want to become as assholes as all the people this forum, I gonna keep on being vegan for good reasons, not to spend my time accusing other people are wrong !! (like everyone does on this forum and what most vegan i've seen so far do all the fucking time)!!!
And I think you should be the one to go to a therapist and take pills ! for thinking that you own the truth and that other people are miserable.

^I don't know where that all came from...

eloine wrote:honestly this forum is pointless, seems the people here Are just the kind of assholes vegan people that most people can't stand, because they are just here to try to piss you off all the time bywanting to prove you are wrong in everything

Well, this is a discussion & debate forum, but we are not trying to 'win' any arguments right now. Brimstone is just trying to give you nutritional advice to help you with going vegan, that's it. I think you're reading into this too far.

eloine wrote:(if you say you use to be depressive they gonna focus on it saying that you should go to a therapist and take medecines, this is what everybody with common sence would agree to call a "asshole behavior!!!

What's wrong with suggesting you go to therapy/take medicine? What could our motive be in advising you to do that if not to help you?

Therapy is a great thing that helps a lot of people in significant ways. You seem to think we're insulting you or something, but we're doing the opposite.

eloine wrote:as if it was not enough to make you feel miserable for fighting depression (like many people do) in every discusssion is just impossible because they seems to like to denigrate everyone

Nobody is attacking you at all, we're just trying to give you advice.

eloine wrote:honestly not eating meet do'nt make you any better than anyone so stop being so full of yourself, the things you believe in is nothing really worth, you are not any better than anyone else on earth and you don't know any better I don't know what is your problem people but obviously not eating meet made you loose compassion

What are we saying that's so arrogant?

We think eating meat is wrong because it harms animals, and you agree, so I'm not sure what you're taking issue with.

eloine wrote:And I think you should be the one to go to a therapist and take pills ! for thinking that you own the truth and that other people are miserable.

Now you seem to be implying that there's something wrong with therapy, that people who use it are 'crazy' or something, when it's a great resource that can change and save peoples' lives.

eloine wrote:

brimstoneSalad wrote: If you want to, you can take a supplement of DHA. The vegan supplements are made from algae, which is the original source.

there are many studies that proves the opposite, that it's very hard for the body to convert DHA and EPA from ALA and especially as you grow older, because the body becomes less efficient as we age

The elderly may benefit from DHA supplementation. As with people who are pregnant.
I don't think there's any reason to believe you would need it right now, but as I already said, you can find a supplement for it if you want.

The research is not very clear on what benefits it provides. With adequate Omega 3 intake, and low Omega 6, it's probably unnecessary for the vast majority.

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/dailyrecs

Without diet planning, vegans and vegetarians have low omega-3 intakes and blood levels; and in some cases, older vegans have close to no DHA in the blood. It is not clear whether these lower blood levels are harmful (and it is not likely to be well understood any time soon). Because DHA supplements are relatively expensive we suggest two options for vegetarians under Step 1.

Step 1: DHA Suppplement

Option A – If you want your DHA levels to be the same as non-vegetarians, supplementing with 300 mg per day will likely accomplish that.
Option B – If you just want some insurance that you are getting a source of DHA in case your body isn't efficient at making it, supplementing with 200 - 300 mg every 2-3 days will provide that.
Vegetarians over 60 years old should err on the side of Option A.
Caution: Too much omega-3s can result in bleeding and bruising. If you have reason to believe you have problems with easy bleeding or bruising, or are already consuming plenty of omega-3s, consult a health professional before following these recommendations or adding more omega-3 to your diet.

Step 2: Minimize Omega-6 Oils

Do not prepare food with oils high in omega-6 such as corn, soy, safflower, sunflower, most vegetable oil blends (typically labeled "vegetable oil") and sesame oil. Instead, use low omega-6 oils like olive, avocado, peanut, or canola. Only cook canola under low heat and for short periods.

Step 3: Add some ALA

Add 0.5 g of uncooked ALA to your diet daily (see chart). This would be the equivalent of:
1/5 oz English* walnuts (3 halves)
1/4 tsp of flaxseed oil
1 tsp of canola oil
1 tsp ground flaxseeds
*English walnuts are the typical walnuts for sale in grocery stores. They are distinct from black walnuts.

More info here: http://veganhealth.org/articles/omega3

If you want to supplement, you can take DHA made from algae.

I believe this has already been repeated a few times.

eloine wrote:and carnosine and creatinie help you grow old slower and it's true that all the vegan people I met my life always looked very much older their age and became old very fast because carnosine and taurine and creatinine help collagen to build + stop AGE and glycation

If you want to supplement on those things, you can buy all of those supplements and take them.
The evidence is very limited, focused on athletic performance and memory, and there's no reason to believe supplementation on these are necessary for good health.

Norris has articles on both of these summarizing the research:

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/carnosine
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/creatine
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/weightlifting#creat

You can even supplement on taurine if you want.
This addresses Taurine and Carnitine:
http://veganhealth.org/articles/amino

Vegans do not age faster than meat eaters, that's anecdotal nonsense. Life expectancy is similar, and if anything vegans live slightly longer due to lower mortality from heart disease and cancer, and suffer fewer age related diseases like arthritis and diabetes. Vegans are not immortal, but it's far better than eating animal products as long as you eat a well balanced vegan diet and take your B12, etc.

Keep daily recommendations in mind: http://veganhealth.org/articles/dailyrecs

We do not agree with Freelee and Durianrider here, or the other extremists. They also support harmful organic food.

I'm trying to give you science based information. You can take it or leave it.

eloine wrote:but honeslty I think if really you believe that vegetables full of pesticides are harmless and healthy and good for you, you should just keep on eating them

Conventional vegetables are not full of pesticides. They contain less pesticide than Organic.
Organic vegetables are full of pesticide. This is what I'm trying to help you understand.

I already gave you many links, including to ecocert, to prove this.

eloine wrote:you are probably lucky enough to not be sensitive to the side effect it can give you to eat strawberries or apples that are not organic ( it gives me huge headaches, but I never had such headaches with organics fruits and I don't base myself on pseudo science but my own feelings) then eveyrone is different, some people can eat huge amounts of pesticides and don't feel any side effects just like some people can live among the dirt without becoming sick,

If conventional fruit really does make you feel sick, it is not due to pesticides. Conventional fruit has less pesticide, and less dangerous pesticide than organic.
Maybe the high amount of pesticides in the organic fruit made you addicted, and when you stop eating the pesticides you feel withdrawal from it -- like if somebody quite smoking, or quits caffeine.

So, actually you get headaches when you reduce your pesticide by eating regular fruit.
Or, it's all nocebo.

Either way, if you want to eat organic, that's up to you.

eloine wrote:but anyway the only ultimate way is to grow your own vegetables, it is cheaped and at least you know what you put on it.

Sure, that's fine. Then you can avoid the pesticides from the organic fruits. But this is not practical for most people.

I just want to make sure you know that organic is not without pesticide: it can have more pesticide on it, and the type of pesticide is more dangerous for humans and more damaging to the environment.
If it's your choice to eat the organic fruit contaminated with dangerous pesticide, that's up to you. I won't stop you. It's 100% your choice.


You are welcome here. But you don't have to stay if you don't want. Nobody is forcing anything on you.

"Now you seem to be implying that there's something wrong with therapy, that people who use it are 'crazy' or something, when it's a great resource that can change and save peoples' lives."
Can you prove it can change life?
do you know anyone who was depressive and went to a therapist that changed his life and cured his depression? usually they just give medecine and make you feel like someone with a "mental disease" that can be cured with a pill and want you to talk for hours about your life !
so yes therapists are here not to save lifes but to "cure " a "disease"
they need to make a living so they certainly never gonna slap your face and say to you to wake up and move on, they gonna make you want to spend all your money to treatments and therapies so they always gonna find a reason to make you want to come back like manipulating you to keep you depressive and make you focusing on the negative part of your life .