Which one is worst / real crime?

[vegan81vzla]

Of course I do not know you to be "animal sexual lovers" or not, its not my business nor care to know for sure, but you DO take the liberty too equate humans with animals as proven many times with your arguments in this thread. Any logic that you might add to your arguments in order to justify such liberty, its fine. Why you deny then when someone points out such a liberty is beyond me. But hey, again. It is your party.

[miniboes]

You compare speciecism to racism because in both cases, sentient beings are treated differently (discriminated) based on an irrelevant trait.

You keep saying sentience matter (...)

Do you disagree?

You compare speciecism to racism because in both cases, sentient beings are treated differently (discriminated) based on an irrelevant trait.

Did you really say that? And then most vegans complain on why veganism is viewed as racist?

I've literally never heard/read anybody saying veganism is racist.

YOU would call it stupid to say that blacks and white are the same(...)

... Do you think it's sexist to point out females and males are not the same since females have two X chromosomes, bear children and produce none-mobile ova? If so, what do you think sexism is?

, but dare to feel, as a vegan, shocked on why people can't see similarities between a cow and a human?

Well, I wouldn't say I feel shocked about that. I think there's many psychological and social explanations for this phenomenom.

Anti-racist will always say that black people and white people are the same.

Are you an anti-racist? Because then I'd like to ask you: does Obama have the same skin color as George Bush? If no, then how can you call yourself an anti-racist by your own defition? If no, do facts matter to you at all?

Maybe you as an Anti-speciesist would say that a cow and a human is the same

I would not.
Cows have four legs, humans do not.
Cows have udders, humans do not.
Cows have multiple stomachs, humans have only one.
Cows can survive on grass, humans cannot.
I can go on for a while. Humans and cows are different creatures, although they share common traits such as a high degree of sentience, interests, emotional connection to offspring, a need for oxygen, etc.

As an animalistic vegan, most would say lightly that they would be happy living among animals with few humans around, if you are of the such, great, but own the misanthope label, don't deny it.

I have no problem with the antrophoscene. I think humans are far more important than animals, and we should not waste as many resources as we do on breeding animals. I want to have far fewer animals around, which is what veganism seeks to accomplish. Less demand for animal products results in breeding fewer animals; it's really that simple.

Slave owners might have told themselves that blacks were less intelligent. They might have told themselves black people were less sentient, thus more pain bearers, or able to endure painful tasks.

In both cases, they would've been entirely wrong. Facts matter.

But that's not the reason why slavery was "abolished".

I don't care why slavery was abolished. Is it not possible that it was abolished for the wrong reasons? I think we should not have slavery because slaves suffered more than they delivered their masters pleasure, and this would be the case in any feasible form slavery might take. What Lincoln or any other abolitionist thinks doesn't matter for whether or not I am right in thinking that.

Like I have said before, the roots of carnism logic do not lie on people being unknowable of animal sentience.

I, nor anybody else here, claim that if people were aware of animal sentience they would automatically go vegan. That'd be bull. There's more to it; not only the acknowledgement of sentience;
- the conviction that we should avoid suffering as much as possible
- the conviction that consuming animal products results in suffering
- the conviction that said suffering is unnecessary; that we don't need animal products
- the incentives to actually act on those convinctions

They keep eating animals out of sheer gluttony.

Do you think gluttony is wrong? why?

I must say I'm very concerned about the way you are arguing on this forum. You use extremely weird definitions, attack people and this forum rather than their arguments, and ignore questions posed to you. This leads me to believe you are extremely close-minded. Please work on this, because this is a place for discussion, not bashing people with your opinion.

Please answer these questions I asked, or this discussion is going nowhere.

• Is it possible to acknowledge that there are differences in traits between two groups, but reject that these differences justifies any difference in treatment?
• Do you understand that speciecism and racism are the almost the same, except for which arbitrary traits are being used to justify differences in treatment between which groups?

The same goes for the questions I posed in this post. Try to treat it somewhat like an exam; make sure you provide a satisfactory answer for every question mark you come across.

[vegan81vzla]

Do you disagree [that sentience matter]?

I disagree that animal sentience matter as a strong argument to promote veganism, yes, I strongly disagree. Vegan food mass production creates animal issues as well, and you see no vegans shed tears about it

Do you think it's sexist to point out females and males are not the same since females have two X chromosomes, bear children and produce none-mobile ova? If so, what do you think sexism is?

sex·ism\ˈsek-ˌsi-zəm\
noun
: unfair treatment of people buecause of their sex ; especially : unfair treatment of women

That is what sexism is, plain and simple, i won't discuss what I think it is, what people who actively fight sexism think it is, nor their tactics, nor what women think it is, etc. In general I strongly disagree with sexism, but again, i would never compare a female to a hog

Are you an anti-racist? Because then I'd like to ask you: does Obama have the same skin color as George Bush? If no, then how can you call yourself an anti-racist by your own defition? If no, do facts matter to you at all?

I am too tired to double check myself, but I believe i have never given any definition of racism. We are all humans with different etnicity and cultural backgrounds, but speaking of relevant differences between ourselves IS irrelevant to the human race

I have no problem with the antrophoscene. I think humans are far more important than animals, and we should not waste as many resources as we do on breeding animals. I want to have far fewer animals around, which is what veganism seeks to accomplish. Less demand for animal products results in breeding fewer animals; it's really that simple.

Finally some common ground. So veganism is NOT about saving animals, nor achieving a higher standars on how humans should treat animals, but a complete breakup from human animal husbandry. So, who cares about calling out their "rights"?

In both cases, they would've been entirely wrong. Facts matter.

I have never said otherwise. (I think, I am not double checking myself)

[miniboes]

Do you disagree [that sentience matter]?

I disagree that animal sentience matter as a strong argument to promote veganism, yes, I strongly disagree. Vegan food mass production creates animal issues as well, and you see no vegans shed tears about it

Do you think it's sexist to point out females and males are not the same since females have two X chromosomes, bear children and produce none-mobile ova? If so, what do you think sexism is?

sex·ism\ˈsek-ˌsi-zəm\
noun
: unfair treatment of people buecause of their sex ; especially : unfair treatment of women

That is what sexism is, plain and simple, i won't discuss what I think it is, what people who actively fight sexism think it is, nor their tactics, nor what women think it is, etc. In general I strongly disagree with sexism, but again, i would never compare a female to a hog

Are you an anti-racist? Because then I'd like to ask you: does Obama have the same skin color as George Bush? If no, then how can you call yourself an anti-racist by your own defition? If no, do facts matter to you at all?

I am too tired to double check myself, but I believe i have never given any definition of racism. We are all humans with different etnicity and cultural backgrounds, but speaking of relevant differences between ourselves IS irrelevant to the human race

I have no problem with the antrophoscene. I think humans are far more important than animals, and we should not waste as many resources as we do on breeding animals. I want to have far fewer animals around, which is what veganism seeks to accomplish. Less demand for animal products results in breeding fewer animals; it's really that simple.

Finally some common ground. So veganism is NOT about saving animals, nor achieving a higher standars on how humans should treat animals, but a complete breakup from human animal husbandry. So, who cares about calling out their "rights"?

In both cases, they would've been entirely wrong. Facts matter.

I have never said otherwise. (I think, I am not double checking myself)

If you're going to refuse to answer any of the questions I ask you, I'm not interested in trying to have a discussion with you. You seem to be completely unwilling to re-examine your own beliefs.

[brimstoneSalad]

vegan81vzla, stop deflecting. You must answer miniboes' questions to participate here. There weren't that many of them. Miniboes answered your questions before, right?

You need to learn to participate in discussion properly.

[vegan81vzla]

I thought I was answering his questions. You know, I am not a bot, so I have other things to do besides commenting here. I didn't answer ALL his questions because as I commented before I was very tired, and as HE did say to answer ALL his questions I began with the firsts ones first, and decided to answer the rest whenever I had the time to do so... And also my battery was about to die when I was writting the reply, so I didn't want it to go to waste so I just posted it even though I hadn't ended it... You guys here really like to complain even when pleased...

[miniboes]

Do you disagree [that sentience matter]?

I disagree that animal sentience matter as a strong argument to promote veganism, yes, I strongly disagree. Vegan food mass production creates animal issues as well, and you see no vegans shed tears about it

You answered that question. Good job.

Do you think it's sexist to point out females and males are not the same since females have two X chromosomes, bear children and produce none-mobile ova? If so, what do you think sexism is?

sex·ism\ˈsek-ˌsi-zəm\
noun
: unfair treatment of people buecause of their sex ; especially : unfair treatment of women

That is what sexism is, plain and simple, i won't discuss what I think it is, what people who actively fight sexism think it is, nor their tactics, nor what women think it is, etc. In general I strongly disagree with sexism, but again, i would never compare a female to a hog

Here, however, you're not actually answering my question. "Do you think it's sexist to(...)" is not answered by giving the dictionary definition of feminism. Is the particular act I describe sexist; yes or no? It's not rocket science.

Are you an anti-racist? Because then I'd like to ask you: does Obama have the same skin color as George Bush? If no, then how can you call yourself an anti-racist by your own definition? If no, do facts matter to you at all?

I am too tired to double check myself, but I believe i have never given any definition of racism. We are all humans with different etnicity and cultural backgrounds, but speaking of relevant differences between ourselves IS irrelevant to the human race

You said:

Anti-racist will always say that black people and white people are the same.

So, I asked you: do Obama and Bush have the same skin color? You didn't answer this question. It's yes or no again, I couldn't make it easier for you if I tried.

If you're too tired to respond properly, go to bed. If you need more time to respond to all of it, save a draft and take your time. If you need to think about it more, then do so. I don't need a response within 24 hours. What I need to have a proper discussion with you is actual answers. I don't care how long it takes for you to write it.

[vegan81vzla]

Well then don't
... I'm not into taking an exam by the vegan police here either... I did answer your questions whether you understood the answers or not

[miniboes]

Well then don't
... I'm not into taking an exam by the vegan police here either... I did answer your questions whether you understood the answers or not

You did not answer my questions, as I explained above.

You're not taking an exam, but presumably you're trying to have a productive discussion. If you're not, then I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish here.

[vegan81vzla]

Is it not possible that it was abolished for the wrong reasons?

Some might argue that slavery has never been abolished and that it actually got worst for the slave/workers, hence my use of quotation marks. That workers got rigths doesn't mean they are better off. That women got rights never meant the end of sexism. Equally why does the vegan movement think that a bill of rights for animals is the end goal for a vegan advanced society? It will only mean a legalized exploitation

- the conviction that we should avoid suffering as much as possible

There is a reason, I believe, why the vegan definition used the word "cruelty" and not suffering. Granted, they are related, but we want humans to stop being cruel to animals, and to be honest, the matter of the fact that animals suffer seems to have never been of much interest.

- the conviction that consuming animal products results in suffering

That's when carnist say "hey, I hunt my own meat, so the animal lived a free happy live" or "that's why extensive farming is better for the animals than intensive factory farming, the animals end up living free range" ending up creating more ennvironmenntal degradation. Focusing on the animals has never made a massive vegan turn over.

- the conviction that said suffering is unnecessary; that we don't need animal products

What it is unnecessary is humans being cruel, a.k.a. use and abuse animals.

- the incentives to actually act on those convinctions

Hence veganism which promotes the use and development of animal-free alternatives for the benefiit of the human kind, the animal kingdom and the environment

Do you think gluttony is wrong? why?

The body does not really need much food as we think, the constant explotation of natural resources for the sake of pleasing each individual's anxiety problems is not sustainable (even inside a vegan framework) hence, the need for people to fast and for it to be accepted socially as a human need

Is it possible to acknowledge that there are differences in traits between two groups, but reject that these differences justifies any difference in treatment?

Yes, it is possible, but veganism does not seek for humans to treat animals better, but for humans to not treat animals at all

Do you understand that speciecism and racism are the almost the same, except for which arbitrary traits are being used to justify differences in treatment between which groups?

No, the differences are bigger and much more imporant between speciesism and racism, which I hope would answer your questions about the chromosomes and Obama and Bush. Gender differences and etnic differences are minuscule to specie's differences. I am no sexist, I am no racist. I am a speciesist, and as a vegan I don't fear to acknowledge it.