Philosophical Vegan Forum

Hi everyone,

I'm Toby. I had been vegetarian all my life (4th generation, in fact) until 6 months ago, when I finally went Vegan. I knew I had to for a few years before that but it was Gary Yourofsky's speech that finally did it. I hated his style and found it really agonising to watch, but I realised I couldn't argue with any of his points at all. Once you realise that even someone who completely pisses you off is still making all the sense, there's not a lot you can do but agree with them

I've also been atheist since I was about 14. I don't think there was ever a moment when it happened. It just became obvious to me at some point, and I've been fairly open about it ever since.

I actually had planned to start my own blog, and was going to call it "The Vegan Atheist"... so here I am! Happy to know there are far more of us in the world that I thought.

I've realised over the past few months that I'm finding it harder and harder to be vegan in silence. I always tried to avoid bringing up my vegetarianism and now veganism, but inevitably people ask about it as soon as they find out, or try to challenge it. I'm now most definitely on a personal mission to find the best way to spread the message that veganism is the best (or only) way to be healthier, tackle climate change and environmental destruction, and tackle unnecessary animal exploitation, suffering and death.

I'm working on a kind of "best strategy" to discuss these important topics with meat eaters and vegetarians to show them the importance of veganism, the reasons many of their current ways of thinking about this issues are flawed etc, and how big of a positive impact changing to veganism could have on the world and the animals in it. At the moment I believe it's mostly about avoiding using the word vegan, or even vegetarian, at all, and instead trying to persuade people that reducing their impact as much as possible is the aim (in the hope that as they look into it more they release reducing it to 0 if the only logical way to go). It's also about avoiding shaming, blame, over-emotional language, accusations and so on. The best writing and speaking I've seen so far that represents my views are on veganstrategist.org. veganstrategist.org/2015/10/05/shaming-vegans-harms-animals-melanie-joy/ in particular is excellent. I'm still working on it though, of course

Thanks for having me here! Can't wait to be involved in the discussion.

Welcome!

I have about the same feeling with Yourofsky's speech. His speech happens to be mostly correct, but outside of animal ethics he seems to be morally bankrupt.

Melanie Joy is an excellent advocate of ethical veganism, have you seen her TED Talk?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0VrZPBskpg

tobyvacher wrote: I'm working on a kind of "best strategy" to discuss these important topics with meat eaters and vegetarians to show them the importance of veganism, the reasons many of their current ways of thinking about this issues are flawed etc, and how big of a positive impact changing to veganism could have on the world and the animals in it. At the moment I believe it's mostly about avoiding using the word vegan, or even vegetarian, at all, and instead trying to persuade people that reducing their impact as much as possible is the aim (in the hope that as they look into it more they release reducing it to 0 if the only logical way to go). It's also about avoiding shaming, blame, over-emotional language, accusations and so on. The best writing and speaking I've seen so far that represents my views are on veganstrategist.org. veganstrategist.org/2015/10/05/shaming-vegans-harms-animals-melanie-joy/ in particular is excellent. I'm still working on it though, of course
.

Welcome to the forum. I also find veganstrategists.org great and it was the site which first set the ball rolling for me by pointing out the inconsistencies in prominent atheists' worldviews when it came to animal product consumption.

If youre up to it I'd also recommend checking out these two groups:

Effective animal activism which also focuses on what you have been referring to:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Effecti ... m/?fref=ts

And skeptic vegan discussion group which is as its name implies:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/skepticvegan/

Hello Toby, welcome to the forum.

tobyvacher wrote:It was Gary Yourofsky's speech* that finally did it. I hated his style and found it really agonising to watch, but I realised I couldn't argue with any of his points at all. Once you realise that even someone who completely pisses you off is still making all the sense, there's not a lot you can do but agree with them

Funny to hear you say that because I felt the opposite way about his speech. *Are you referring to his 2010 Georgia Tech Speech, or a different one? I'm not sure what you hated about it (bluntness? shouting? honest expression of emotions?), but I found his style refreshing for exactly the reason he described: he's not a politician and he doesn't talk like one. His emotional delivery might seem unappealing if you're concerned that people might interpret this as an appeal to emotion, but he does a good job of presenting factual and (mostly) accurate information, and making logical arguments. His emotional delivery of his message doesn't bother me because it conveys a proper sense of urgency (change needs to happen yesterday and animals don't want us to take our sweet time thinking about considering maybe-sort-of-kind-of not abusing them).

tobyvacher wrote:I'm working on a kind of "best strategy" to discuss these important topics with meat eaters and vegetarians to show them the importance of veganism, the reasons many of their current ways of thinking about this issues are flawed etc, and how big of a positive impact changing to veganism could have on the world and the animals in it.

Great to hear! I'm trying to do that too.

tobyvacher wrote:At the moment I believe it's mostly about avoiding using the word vegan, or even vegetarian...

Perhaps not at the beginning of a conversation about why you avoid certain foods; but once you explain your reasons for not consuming animals, and the importance of these reasons, it might be a good idea to explain what "veganism" actually is and what it isn't. After all, many people hold misconceptions about veganism that cause them to have a negative view of it, which might change once they better understand what it is.

tobyvacher wrote:veganstrategist.org. veganstrategist.org/2015/10/05/shaming-vegans-harms-animals-melanie-joy/ in particular is excellent. I'm still working on it though, of course

I'll check it out. I'm familiar with Melanie Joy. I've seen her "Beyond Carnism" speech and liked it.

tobyvacher wrote:Thanks for having me here! Can't wait to be involved in the discussion.

Can't wait to see your insights.

garrethdsouza wrote: If youre up to it I'd also recommend checking out these two groups:

Effective animal activism which also focuses on what you have been referring to:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Effecti ... m/?fref=ts

And skeptic vegan discussion group which is as its name implies:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/skepticvegan/

Thanks so much, those look great!

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:Hello Toby, welcome to the forum.

tobyvacher wrote:It was Gary Yourofsky's speech* that finally did it.

Funny to hear you say that because I felt the opposite way about his speech. *Are you referring to his 2010 Georgia Tech Speech, or a different one? I'm not sure what you hated about it (bluntness? shouting? honest expression of emotions?)

It was this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UROxRLbVils

I think I felt like his repetition of things, and some of the language he used, particularly the fact that some seems to suggest that if you weren't vegan already, you were less intelligent or heartless (rather than perhaps just ignorant of the facts, which is how I assume most non-vegans are)

ArmouredAbolitionist wrote:

tobyvacher wrote:At the moment I believe it's mostly about avoiding using the word vegan, or even vegetarian...

Perhaps not at the beginning of a conversation about why you avoid certain foods; but once you explain your reasons for not consuming animals, and the importance of these reasons, it might be a good idea to explain what "veganism" actually is and what it isn't. After all, many people hold misconceptions about veganism that cause them to have a negative view of it, which might change once they better understand what it is.

I quite like the idea of explaining why not eating meat and animal products is good for the world, your health, and the animals, and then summing up a productive conversation by giving it a name. veganism.
I worry that by starting with "i do this thing, it's called veganism", that in itself is enough to set people off, and for them to remember all their misconceptions.


I struggle to fully understand why anyone isn't both vegan and atheist, but if each of those groups on their own are as small as they are, "vegan atheists" must be one of the smallest minorities there is

Hi Toby, and welcome! I'm glad you found us, you're in good company here.
I hope you like the forum.

It's really great that you're thinking of effective activism, I look forward to seeing what kinds of discussions develop.