Philosophical Vegan Forum

Casein is a pretty amazing molecule. From Cheese to condoms, and even some matches, it's in a lot of things that have amazing stretching properties.

But, its production involves profound cruelty.

It's been something particularly hard to replace in a vegan cheese substitute.

How to do this has been stumping scientists for years. Dairy cheeses and even some lactose-free varieties rely on a milk protein called casein. Casein is "a truly remarkable protein like nothing else on the planet, and it allows real cheese to melt and stretch,"says Jonathan Gordon, a food scientist who earned his Ph.D. by studying the fermentation of soymilk for use in food products. Gordon has done stints at Kraft and now a company called Galaxy Nutritional Foods to try to perfect the cheese-like experience.

"It's sort of analogous to a zipper that doesn't have an end on it," Gordon tells The Salt. "The casein protein has an ability to hold onto itself and then lightly let go and then hold onto itself, and that's how it stretches."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/0 ... e-cheesier

Now, a vegan cheese like ricotta (which lacks casein) is trivial, and so is nailing the taste of any cheese (since those come from fermentation). But the melting and stretching, not so much.

Is vegan Casein possible?
And if so, how would we go about making it a thing?


I know not everybody agrees with replacing meats and cheeses with meaty and cheesy things, this is mainly for people who think that's important. And yes, casein is bad for you, and a vegan source of casein would be bad for you too- but it would be less bad for the animals, and if a synthetic source could be produced, it could prevent some animal suffering by more easily replacing cheese in the diets of non-vegans with something physically identical.

Im not sure I understand the purpose of vegan casein? Are you suggesting we could develop it so that vegan "cheese" could be made stretchy? If so, I believe stretch vegan cheese already exists: Diaya

brimstoneSalad wrote: Now, a vegan cheese like ricotta (which lacks casein) is trivial . . .

Do you make ricotta-like vegan cheese at home? If so, could you share your favorite recipe?

brimstoneSalad wrote:And yes, casein is bad for you, and a vegan source of casein would be bad for you too . . .

Why?

TheVeganAtheist wrote:Im not sure I understand the purpose of vegan casein? Are you suggesting we could develop it so that vegan "cheese" could be made stretchy? If so, I believe stretch vegan cheese already exists: Diaya

The article mentions Daiya, but it's not quite there yet- it doesn't really stretch like cheese. Only occasionally will you get a piece that stretches a couple centimeters, it's night and day. It does kind of sort of melt a little, but not like cheese does.
I don't know any omnivores who have thought Daiya was cheese (most I've seen try it didn't like it)- the mouth feel is starchy and oily, not springy. I've had better luck with home-made nut cheeses, but of course, those don't stretch either (even with added tapioca starch, it's no better than Daiya).

If we had a form of synthetic casein, either created by chemical means directly, or by microorganisms, an indistinguishable cheese substitute could be created. Being genuinely indistinguishable would ease one of the barriers people seem to face to adopting a vegan diet.

cufflink wrote:Do you make ricotta-like vegan cheese at home? If so, could you share your favorite recipe?

You just need to blend up a bunch of nuts (a mix of nuts is usually good), and add in a touch of vinegar, lemon juice, salt to taste, and whatever spices you like (I add a bit of garlic), a bit of sweetness helps too.

Raw almonds and cashews are popular choices, because they have mild flavors.
I recommend cutting it with some sunflower seeds, because sunflower seeds tend to be a lot cheaper, and at less than 50% sunflower seeds the taste they have (which is stronger than almond of cashew) isn't overbearing.
If you can get your hands on some hulled hemp seeds, those are great (and have a better fatty acid profile)- though they have a little earthy flavor.
Adding a few sesame seeds into the mix can round out the taste with a little bit of sharpness from those.

Also add a touch of sweetness. Cheese is mostly fatty (from the nuts), salty, sour, and sweet, with a bit of pungent depending on the variety (which can come from vinegar or fermentation- fermentation does a better job at that IMO).

You don't have to ferment it, but if you do, you can get a more sour cheese without adding any vinegar or lemon juice (just the salt), and you can get a more robust flavor. Fermenting takes a day or two, left in a warm area- if you add a starter (like a bit of your yogurt), it will go a lot faster.

When you bake it, like in a lasagna, it will usually set up nicely. Sometimes I'll add a little starch to help it set more during baking. It's a crumbly squishy cheese, like ricotta. I'd say most people can't tell the difference with all of the other rich flavors in the lasagna,

cufflink wrote:

brimstoneSalad wrote:And yes, casein is bad for you, and a vegan source of casein would be bad for you too . . .

Why?

Mechanically, casein causes constipation, and slows passage through bowels because it kind of gums up in you the same way it gums up the cheese to make it springy and stretchy (apparently).

A lot of people are also intolerant or even allergic to varying degrees; our systems aren't exactly built to handle casein after infancy, because it's a substance that only occurs in milk. It's tough on the system- for some more than others.

There are also some studies with rats, although the results are subject to interpretation to some degree: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casein#The ... _on_cancer

Casein seems uniquely suited to promote cancer, at least with high levels of consumption.

Thanks a lot, brim. I'll definitely try cheese-making. A dish that particularly impressed me as I was considering a vegan diet was pasta shells stuffed with vegan ricotta, in marinara sauce. It was yummy, and I look forward to being able to duplicate it.

cufflink wrote:Thanks a lot, brim. I'll definitely try cheese-making. A dish that particularly impressed me as I was considering a vegan diet was pasta shells stuffed with vegan ricotta, in marinara sauce. It was yummy, and I look forward to being able to duplicate it.

Is it baked? I guess it could be baked, anyway. Starch should work well for that to firm it up more during baking. Just make sure you blend it as thick as possible to begin with. Getting a smooth blend with as little liquid as possible is always the most challenging thing about nut cheese. A powerful blender helps a lot.

Did you catch the nut cheese thread I started? http://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewto ... f=20&t=138

Why don't we just start using milk from willing lactating human mothers and extract human whey and casein proteins....?
It may not be vegan but it certainly would be hot to watch & easier to digest because human breast milk is made for humans!

The idea is gross and there are so many reasons why we would never milk our own species the way we milk others...

PrincessPeach wrote:Why don't we just start using milk from willing lactating human mothers and extract human whey and casein proteins....?
It may not be vegan but it certainly would be hot to watch & easier to digest because human breast milk is made for humans!

If it was voluntarily given by vegans, then it would be vegan. If from omnivores, then it wouldn't be vegan because involuntary animal products were used in the production process.

Not sure I'd drink it though.

I'm thinking something a little cheaper and more efficient, that would be an unquestionable cheese replacement for those who have trouble giving it up.

brimstoneSalad wrote:

PrincessPeach wrote:Why don't we just start using milk from willing lactating human mothers and extract human whey and casein proteins....?
It may not be vegan but it certainly would be hot to watch & easier to digest because human breast milk is made for humans!

If it was voluntarily given by vegans, then it would be vegan. If from omnivores, then it wouldn't be vegan because involuntary animal products were used in the production process.

Not sure I'd drink it though.

I'm thinking something a little cheaper and more efficient, that would be an unquestionable cheese replacement for those who have trouble giving it up.

How can you say that human breast milk from a vegan would be vegan? Oh I forgot humans are not animals right...? To be vegan one needs to abstain from all animal products, humans are animals so our milk would be an animal product which technically speaking is not vegan even though it came from a human!

The cheapest thing would be to give up the idea of cheese altogether! Why would one want to replicate moldy rotten animal milk any ways...
Everyone needs to be weaned completely from animal-milks unless you are a nursing child!
I agree with TVA, daiya cheeze is already out there!

PrincessPeach wrote: How can you say that human breast milk from a vegan would be vegan?

Human breast milk, willingly given, is vegan. This is unquestioned in the case of children, but there's no logical reason it wouldn't apply elsewhere as well.

I've read countless posts by omnivores criticizing veganism because babies would die without breast milk- which is missing the whole point of veganism.

Veganism isn't a blind dogma, but has to do with avoiding unwilling exploitation. Because non-human animals can not clearly consent to their being used, and said use involves generally cruel exploitation, animal products are rejected.

Human products, willingly given -- be that breast milk, hair (for example, donated for wigs), blood donations, or even Semen (as in the case of oral sex- yes, vegans are allowed to have oral sex too) -- are the only animal products broadly considered vegan.

Other species, who can not consent, raise red flags.

Although in those cases, there is debate within the vegan community which falls along the lines of (usually) the consequentialists who favor a broader and more inclusive definition which follows the spirit of the law, and the more conservative deontologist-minded who are more hard-line on the letter.

Eggs from rescue hens (which would otherwise go to waste), have been a major point of debate. We have a thread on that here, actually.

Here you go:

http://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewto ... f=22&t=114

PrincessPeach wrote: Oh I forgot humans are not animals right...? To be vegan one needs to abstain from all animal products, humans are animals so our milk would be an animal product which technically speaking is not vegan even though it came from a human!

Humans are animals. But it's not that simple.

PrincessPeach wrote: The cheapest thing would be to give up the idea of cheese altogether! Why would one want to replicate moldy rotten animal milk any ways...

To save the lives of animals.

You may not have met very many omnivores who love cheese- or many vegetarians. Cheese is a major stumbling block for many people.

Replacing it eases the transition to a world where animals are treated with real respect and kindness- a world which human cognitive dissonance forbids as long as our hedonistic practices are exploiting them.

PrincessPeach wrote: Everyone needs to be weaned completely from animal-milks unless you are a nursing child!
I agree with TVA, daiya cheeze is already out there!

Daiya is fine for some people. For other people, it tastes like a mouth-full of oily paste. It is not indistinguishable from cheese by any stretch, and for most people it is not an acceptable replacement.

Only by providing superior replacements are we guaranteed to liberate people from the evil grip of the cheese empire.
That's only likely to happen with a chemically analogous replacement for the structural properties of casein.