Not yet a Vagan

[Varshi]

Hi guys,

I am not a Vegan (or Vegetarian), but I am looking to decrease my meat consumption dramatically.
PhD student from Canada, born in the USSR , grew up in Israel (yes I read the old testament in school)

[brimstoneSalad]

Welcome Varshi, glad you joined and are looking to live a more healthy and sustainable lifestyle!

Do you like oysters?

[Varshi]

Raw oysters, no I don't really.
But cooked ones are ok (I make some with wasabi and cheese)... If you have any recipes or recommendations I'm all ears.

[brimstoneSalad]

Cooked ones, yes. I mention that, because oysters (at least rope grown ones), are more environmentally sustainable, and probably aren't sentient, so it's a form of animal protein you might be able to switch to instead of land animal meat.

For health, it's better to go vegan, but oysters are one of the least unhealthy animal foods. So, there are a lot of benefits if you eat oysters instead of other meats, if you aren't ready to go full vegan yet.

[Varshi]

I like that "probably aren't sentient" . What do you think about eating insects? Like roasted crickets and such?

[Cirion Spellbinder]

I apologize for interrupting, but I think brimstoneSalad has answered this question three times in a short period of time now! This pretty much sums up his stance. She said the following in the topic: https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... f=7&t=1423

What do you think is it moral to eat insects as a source of protein?

It's the lesser of two evils, since insects are usually less sentient, and more efficient (more environmentally sustainable). It's better to get your nutrition from plants, though, for health, environmental, and ethical reasons.

They do not have a brain, only a nervous system to control for certain behaviors and habits and thus should not be able to feel any emotions.

Not sure where you got that they don't have brains.

http://insects.about.com/od/morphology/ ... Brains.htm
Here's more on their behavior and decentralized systems:
http://bioteaching.com/insect-brains-an ... elligence/

Insects learn, and are sentient/"conscious" organisms (at least, the larger ones are)

Oysters are sedentary animals, and are probably not sentient. They have much simpler nervous systems than insects, and their behavior doesn't display learning as far as I know.

Maybe you're thinking of oysters instead?

I'm still a meat eater, but I'm planning on slowly decreasing the amount of meat that consume and maybe in the near future completely eliminate all meat from my diet, but it's too early for that; I'm still in the research phase and trying to figure out what to eat and so on.

That's great that you're open to change, we're glad to help in any way we can.

As I mentioned above, Oysters are a good non-sentient option. At least rope grown oysters are more environmentally friendly. However, plant protein is better for your health. Beans and green leafy veggies are the most healthy things you can eat.

[Varshi]

Thanks, I was curious because I study cognition in honey bees . Also having a brain and being sentient are two different things... but I'll continue this is the vegan discussion forum.

[brimstoneSalad]

Also having a brain and being sentient are two different things... but I'll continue this is the vegan discussion forum.

True: Somebody can have a brain which is damaged and not be sentient. However, due to the efficiency of evolution (generally not wasting resources on things that are not used), we should expect most members of a species with a brain to use that brain: And the chief use of any significant brain is sentience (processing and understanding sense information in order to learn and make decisions based on inherent or learned preferences).

If an organism can learn (true learning, not mere sensitization), and responds to operant conditioning (as do most insects), it is sentient. Oysters probably aren't.

[Varshi]

Also having a brain and being sentient are two different things... but I'll continue this is the vegan discussion forum.

And the chief use of any significant brain is sentience (processing and understanding sense information in order to learn and make decisions based on inherent or learned preferences).

That's quite an assumption... What about regulating heart beat? blood pressure? hormones? if you go by brain mass, learning and memory is a tiny part...

If an organism can learn (true learning, not mere sensitization), and responds to operant conditioning (as do most insects), it is sentient. Oysters probably aren't.

Single celled organisms are capable of operant conditioning, so are jelly fish - without a centralized nervous system, much less a brain - are capable of learning and memory.

Also what exactly do you mean by sentient? your criteria seems to be capable of operant conditioning, which I would have to disagree greatly

[brimstoneSalad]

Single celled organisms are capable of operant conditioning, so are jelly fish - without a centralized nervous system, much less a brain - are capable of learning and memory.

This, as far as I have been able to find, is a myth. Like "plant psychology". These organisms are subject to sensitization, which is distinct from true learning.

Also having a brain and being sentient are two different things... but I'll continue this is the vegan discussion forum.

And the chief use of any significant brain is sentience (processing and understanding sense information in order to learn and make decisions based on inherent or learned preferences).

That's quite an assumption... What about regulating heart beat? blood pressure? hormones? if you go by brain mass, learning and memory is a tiny part...

I don't know where you get that idea. Did you miss where I talked about sense processing?

Sense processing, and recognizing patterns from sensory input is the largest part of brain activity in those animals with substantial brain mass; it's what takes the most processing power. That's almost always tied to sentience.

Those more automatic actions like heartbeat are simpler processes that don't need large centralized structures to regulate them in non-sentient organisms. Small nerve clusters are adequate for heart regulation, for example. Mostly, things done in our brain stems are non-sentient, but we do also retain conscious control over them to some degree which probably explains the necessary proximity in humans.

Without centralized sentience, the rest is better off decentralized.

Also what exactly do you mean by sentient? your criteria seems to be capable of operant conditioning, which I would have to disagree greatly

Why do you disagree?