Philosophical Vegan Forum

So the other day I was hanging out with my friends, and they always talk about their girlfriends, and how they're so cool for having one. Then they were like "So what about you George? You have woman?" and I was all like "Nah dawg, not at the moment." (that's not what actually happened), and everyone got all up in arms and were like "Dude you don't have a girlfriend what're you gay or something (not that there's anything wrong with that)!?". well despite the fact that this is a false dichotomy I've never fully understood the, say, point of having a girlfriend in high school, or from personal experience, middle school. I mean let's face it; chances are you're going to break up within the first 8 months, at most 2,3, MAYBE 4 years (sorry I just discovered the font size button), and 90% of the time (not actual statistic), you're only dating her because she's hot. Sure you may care about her personality but for the most part, you only care about the package and what comes inside. But it is what it is, I guess. I mean, it's only natural for us to be like this, since we are wired to be an alpha male and screw everything that moves. Hell it even occurs in other species in the animal kingdom.

Anyway, I guess having a girlfriend could prep you for having a permanent one in the real world, but I fail to see the point in having a temporary relationship that will leave you heartbroken (that was sarcastic and genuine) at the end of it, and how it's not like you can make multiple attempts when you're in your 20s. And even when you do get your hands on a girl, what're you gonna do with her anyways? Hang out, maybe kiss, but what's the point of being in a romantic relationship like that anyways? Hell it's gotten to the point that my parents and grandfather are telling me I should get a girlfriend. If I do get one, it'll only be so they don't think I'm gay. Anyway, maybe I'll understand when I'm older. anyway, what do you think?

It's a great way to get or spread herpes. And yes, even just kissing. More likely, you'd end up having sex (most do in highschool, which is idiotic, but it is what it is), and will likely contract more STDs. Or even knock her up, after which you will owe child support to your ex for the next 18 years.

You're smart to not bother with it.

Unless you're serious, and are moving in together and intentionally having kids, and planning to stay together for a decade or two, exclusive relationships are counterproductive anyway. When you engage in an exclusive relationship, you cut off the possibility of meeting somebody better (which, given the small probability that you happened to meet somebody decent at your high school, lands you in a shitty relationship which foils your potential to find something more).

brimstoneSalad wrote:It's a great way to get or spread herpes. And yes, even just kissing. More likely, you'd end up having sex (most do in highschool, which is idiotic, but it is what it is), and will likely contract more STDs. Or even knock her up, after which you will owe child support to your ex for the next 18 years.

I wouldn't 100% consider it an STD if you get it from kissing. Regardless, it's always smart to play it safe and only kiss your mom until you're old, intelligent, and mature enough to not take advantage of your sexy bits. And I forgot that some girls are looking for what's in your wallet .
and having sex in high school just means you're either a moron, or you think you're cool, which is still being a moron, or peer pressure.

You're smart to not bother with it.

i know i am

Unless you're serious, and are moving in together and intentionally having kids, and planning to stay together for a decade or two, exclusive relationships are counterproductive anyway. When you engage in an exclusive relationship, you cut off the possibility of meeting somebody better (which, given the small probability that you happened to meet somebody decent at your high school, lands you in a shitty relationship which foils your potential to find something more).

also, I'm not really interested in having kids, and, unless it's siblings and relatives, or close friend, I don't think I'll be able to live with another human being until one of us dies, no matter how much I love her, because eventually love relationships disintegrate during your 40s from what I can tell. and there's always gonna be someone better than the person you just met, even if "You Sexy Thing" starts playing in your head the moment you lay eyes on her, and you think not one person on this planet is hotter than her. there's always someone with a better heart. even dating websites lie. but y'know whatever.

RedAppleGP wrote: I wouldn't 100% consider it an STD if you get it from kissing. Regardless, it's always smart to play it safe and only kiss your mom until you're old, intelligent, and mature enough to not take advantage of your sexy bits.

Orally transmitted diseases can be STDs too... and you can get an STD by kissing your mother. Please don't kiss family members, particularly on the lips.

brimstoneSalad wrote: Orally transmitted diseases can be STDs too...

well I was thinking more of sodomy in oral sex but whatevs.

brimstoneSalad wrote:and you can get an STD by kissing your mother. Please don't kiss family members, particularly on the lips.

well yeah, unless it was passed onto you. and i kinda meant on the cheek.

RedAppleGP wrote:Hang out, maybe kiss, but what's the point of being in a romantic relationship like that anyways?

Are you implying that the only point of a relationship is having sex?

Well, to each their own.

RedAppleGP wrote:you're only dating her because she's hot.

What?

"Most people in high school who are in a relationship do it for the wrong reason (as opposed to your reason ). Therefore, I shouldn't do it."
That's like saying, "When most people eat vegetables, they do it because their parents make them. Therefore, I shouldn't eat vegetables."

RedAppleGP wrote:If I do get one, it'll only be so they don't think I'm gay.

So what if they think you're gay?

RedAppleGP wrote:And I forgot that some girls are looking for what's in your wallet .

"Some foods are bad for me, so I'll just starve myself."


What's so bad about having sex in high school, providing you use (vegan) protection? What, because protection isn't infallible?
Either way, we shouldn't support abstinence only education (even if practicing abstinence is actually better in high school), because it doesn't work as well as promoting birth control.

EquALLity wrote: Are you implying that the only point of a relationship is having sex?

Naturally speaking, yes. But what I'm trying to say that you're going to break up eventually. You'll have a better chance of getting laid when you're older and more mature.

EquALLity wrote: What?

"Most people in high school who are in a relationship do it for the wrong reason (as opposed to your reason ). Therefore, I shouldn't do it."
That's like saying, "When most people eat vegetables, they do it because their parents make them. Therefore, I shouldn't eat vegetables."

I never said it was for the wrong reason, I'm saying it's the main reason. And we evolved to be like this, so who am I to judge?

EquALLity wrote: So what if they think you're gay?

Considering how they reacted with my veganism, they may not take homosexuality very lightly. Well, maybe they'll just be annoyed. I dunno.

EquALLity wrote: "Some foods are bad for me, so I'll just starve myself."

That's a strawman.
I never implied you shouldn't get out there, I was implying that not all girls are wanting to love you, and you gotta be on your toes.

EquALLity wrote: What's so bad about having sex in high school, providing you use (vegan) protection? What, because protection isn't infallible?
Either way, we shouldn't support abstinence only education (even if practicing abstinence is actually better in high school), because it doesn't work as well as promoting birth control.

Come on, what's the point? I am a, say horny individual, but you don't see me banging every chick I see as remotely hot, even though I'm wired to do so. I got my hand for that business.

RedAppleGP wrote:Naturally speaking, yes. But what I'm trying to say that you're going to break up eventually. You'll have a better chance of getting laid when you're older and more mature.

Well, if you go in thinking you'll break up eventually, then you probably will.

You think you'll break up no matter what, so you won't try to preserve the relationship, and then you do break up as a result.

'Naturally speaking'? What do you consider natural, and why does natural equal good?

RedAppleGP wrote:I never said it was for the wrong reason, I'm saying it's the main reason. And we evolved to be like this, so who am I to judge?

Why does it matter how we evolved?

Well, if it's not wrong, why were you using it to argue for not being in a relationship?
Unless you were just randomly saying it, but it doesn't really seem that way.

RedAppleGP wrote:Considering how they reacted with my veganism, they may not take homosexuality very lightly. Well, maybe they'll just be annoyed. I dunno.

So you'd do something you disagree with, so that your grandparents don't react in a negative way, even if it doesn't make sense for them to react that way?

RedAppleGP wrote:That's a strawman.
I never implied you shouldn't get out there, I was implying that not all girls are wanting to love you, and you gotta be on your toes.

Well, when your basic message was that dating in high school is a bad idea, and then you say that possible partners are gold-diggers, it makes sense to think that you are using it to support your main idea.

But if you weren't, whatever.

RedAppleGP wrote:Come on, what's the point?

I'm not saying it's a good idea, just asking why you think it's a bad one. It doesn't really seem like you have a reason to think that.

RedAppleGP wrote: I am a, say horny individual, but you don't see me banging every chick I see as remotely hot, even though I'm wired to do so. I got my hand for that business.

I don't see why it matters what you're doing personally. I'm just saying that you shouldn't call people morons etc. without a reason.

RedAppleGP wrote:Come on, what's the point? I am a, say horny individual, but you don't see me banging every chick I see as remotely hot, even though I'm wired to do so. I got my hand for that business.

Good man.

EquALLity wrote:Well, if you go in thinking you'll break up eventually, then you probably will.

Either way, you probably will. RedApple is right here.

Relationships are something that don't respond well to 'positive thinking', much like the weather, because they depend on the functionality of something outside yourself.

Relationships are a lot more like the weather, than about personal metrics like passing a class, or making a shot in a game.

If you go out today thinking it will rain, it doesn't make it more likely to rain. If you enter into a relationship thinking it will be short, it doesn't make it more likely to be.

Rather, if you go into a relationship thinking it will last, it's more likely you're just delusional, and entering into an unhealthy relationship due to an unrealistic mindset and expectations.

EquALLity wrote:You think you'll break up no matter what, so you won't try to preserve the relationship, and then you do break up as a result.

Which is exactly what you should do if a relationship isn't working.
A bad relationship is far more harmful and destructive than no relationship, or just a few good friends.

EquALLity wrote:I don't see why it matters what you're doing personally. I'm just saying that you shouldn't call people morons etc. without a reason.

It's bad practice to have a romantic relationship in high school, based on the statistics. He's looking around, and making the very reasonable conclusion that, "I'm not the exception to the norm, and if I date in high school, it will probably turn out like others'".

When it comes to love, it's very difficult for most people to think rationally, and they see themselves or their relationships as the exceptions to the rule, rather than looking plainly at the statistics, and the consequences of romantic entanglements.

EquALLity wrote:What's so bad about having sex in high school, providing you use (vegan) protection? What, because protection isn't infallible?

Protection isn't that protective, and yes, there are substantial risks without substantial benefit. It's a cost-benefit analysis. If he uses his hand to get off, and has friends for social connection, he gets almost all of the benefit with none of the cost. It's one of the best arguments RedApple has made here.

But also consider the ethical prerogative to get vaccinated against deadly diseases:
It is not just a personal benefit, but a moral prerogative to limit your sexual partners to as small a circle as you reasonably can during life -- and CLOSED circles -- because it inhibits the spread and genesis of diseases.

Here are a few tips:

1. Always get tested, every time you have a new sexual partner. Ideally you and the potential partner, for every test available. Repeat this even if both of you were originally negative, when you get a new partner. Your prior partner may have cheated and introduced a new pathogen to you unknowingly.
Do not trust anybody, even if you are socially and romantically obligated to. See the results yourself.
Don't assume they don't have anything because they say they're virgins.

2. You should ideally be able to trace every link in your sexual chain back to dead ends in known virgins.
No open loops, where you can't track the connection to the outside world where diseases may have entered. You should be able to account for every person you've had sex with, and every person all of those people have had sex with, and so on back to virgins. If you meet somebody who has a complex enough sexual history they can't do this, consider carefully if there are better options.

STD tests don't test for everything, and definitely not new diseases. E.g. HIV was never tested for until it was known about and tests developed; it spread unknown for a long time before coming to light. This is how serious new diseases spread. There are also less serious diseases that are ignored in tests because the symptoms are more mild, but may still contribute to cancer risk, etc.

3. Don't be a slut (man or woman). Stick to a couple sexual partners at a time; a small circle, and sustained longer term relationships with people you like and trust socially (like friends with benefits). Two couples swinging may be the ideal configuration to reduce infidelity. Monogamy sounds great, but is in practice often counterproductive due to overwhelming cheating (which is far less safe than swinging with known and tested partners). If you can keep your lifetime sexual partners down to under five and following rules 1 and 2, you're doing pretty good.
Don't waste any of those lifetime partner slots on idiot kids in high school. Save them for when you really need them and can enjoy a more lasting friendship with great sex as an adult.

EquALLity wrote:Either way, we shouldn't support abstinence only education (even if practicing abstinence is actually better in high school), because it doesn't work as well as promoting birth control.

We shouldn't support vegan only advocacy. But we should practice veganism ourselves, right?
Abstinence is the way to go in high school, even if very few people have the insight to understand that.

A few points here:

Let's not forget that sex can be a lot of fun, and our early sexual experiences are usually great memories we carry with us for life. Of course, it's not without its risks but those risks can be minimized if one takes caution.

Most of the men I know who have a natural way with women were those who started young whereas those who are awkward around women started late. I would therefore advise any teenage boy to get out there and start honing his skills.

I also wouldn't recommend you to view long-term relationships as something successful that one should strive for. People who do that often end up getting very hurt when relationships end.

It is highly unusual for a teenager (especially a non-religious one) to advocate teenage celibacy. Are you generally comfortable around pretty girls or is this perhaps something that scares you and that you are trying to avoid?