Sesame Credit

[Cirion Spellbinder]

For those of you who are not aware, a new credit score application has been released in China. This application calculates a social credit score for you based on your purchases, posts on social media, and links to other people. Obedience and conformity to the Chinese party and its principles are rewarded with higher score, while a lack of obedience and conformity results in a lower score. Currently there are no rewards or punishments for having a low score or high score. However, by 2020 it will be mandatory for all citizens to be implemented into the system and a reward / punishment system is being discussed.

What do you make of this?

[brimstoneSalad]

It's important for China, where "credit" and debt in the Western sense is not as common.
You basically have a country of people who are largely unable to get loans or credit because... they don't use credit.
This just sounds like a solution to that which takes into account normal purchases (rather than just credit based ones), as well as sums up other available non-credit-related data to give a replacement for Western credit scores (which, if you'll look at typical systems in the West, are very flawed).

I'm sure there are a number of myths swirling around over the system. I wouldn't give too much credibility to anything I read about it.

By the way, sesame credit is just Alibaba's system; these are private companies doing this from what I can tell, and there are a number of different names different companies use for their systems. The Chinese government has just allowed them leeway to do it.

[miniboes]

I heard about it from this video: https://youtu.be/lHcTKWiZ8sI

If the explanation in this video is accurate, I think it's really scary.

[brimstoneSalad]

I heard about it from this video: https://youtu.be/lHcTKWiZ8sI

If the explanation in this video is accurate, I think it's really scary.

Good video, but note my post.

This is basically just a credit score (which also does most of those things) minus the actual credit (because that's not something that's popular in China), which is going to make it possible to more easily evaluate people to give loans. It will probably also apply to things like government jobs, as Western countries do with background checks and security clearance (thus the evaluations of political positions).

Sounds like a good thing to me.

[miniboes]

I heard about it from this video: https://youtu.be/lHcTKWiZ8sI

If the explanation in this video is accurate, I think it's really scary.

Good video, but note my post.

This is basically just a credit score (which also does most of those things) minus the actual credit (because that's not something that's popular in China), which is going to make it possible to more easily evaluate people to give loans. It will probably also apply to things like government jobs, as Western countries do with background checks and security clearance (thus the evaluations of political positions).

Sounds like a good thing to me.

\

Yeah, but if the credit score is based on things like your political views, and even the political views of your friends, that's a really big attack on freedom of speech. It's not like there would be freedom of speech in China otherwise, but I can't help but see this as a highly repressive system.

[brimstoneSalad]

Yeah, but if the credit score is based on things like your political views, and even the political views of your friends, that's a really big attack on freedom of speech. It's not like there would be freedom of speech in China otherwise, but I can't help but see this as a highly repressive system.

I hate talking politics, but I'll just say this:

Looking at political gridlock in the states and the insanity of the corporate money and special interest controlled political process, consider the benefits of a one party system. Now imagine that one party was socialist, atheist, and basically deferred to experts on matters of national policy (which is easy to do, since they have no platform based on political dogma to maintain). It's not perfect to be sure -- corruption has been a MAJOR issue in the recent past -- but now that they're cracking down on that with one of the biggest witch hunts in human history, I think there's good reason to be optimistic (or at least reserve criticism until we see how things play out).

[Cirion Spellbinder]

Pros:
- Accesible Loans
- Background Checks
- Potential for Peer Pressure to Create a Safer, Law Abiding Environment
- Muffling of Negative Voices (ex: religous cults and advocates of pseudoscience)
- Reduces Effectiveness of Inciting Violence
Cons:
- Further Deterioration of Free Speech
- Potential to Turn Friends Against Eachother
- Will be Mandatory / Automatic by 2020
- Possible Opressive Punishment / Reward System

Anything else?

[brimstoneSalad]

Pros:
- Accesible Loans
- Background Checks
Cons:
- Further Deterioration of Free Speech
- Potential to Turn Friends Against Eachother
- Will be Mandatory by 2020
- Possible Opressive Punishment / Reward System

Anything else?

'Mandatory' doesn't really mean anything in this case, it's just rhetoric. Now it's opt in, later it will be automatic. That's functionally irrelevant: What matters is the consequences of the system.

You can think of more pros than that. Watch the video miniboes posted, and think about the flip side of your cons.

"- Potential to Turn Friends Against Eachother"

Potential for peer pressure to influence people more to be more productive and become better people (like avoid committing crimes, drive more safely, and other metrics this will track).

"- Further Deterioration of Free Speech"

Squashing pseudoscience and inhibiting the spread of damaging religious cults. Reducing violent dissident behavior (there are people in China who are planning violent overthrow of the government -- no country stands for that, and it's rarely justified in terms of consequence).

Most things in life are trade offs. Think about the other side of issues too.

[Cirion Spellbinder]

I'll update it, thank you

[brimstoneSalad]

I'll update it, thank you

Remember, there are two sides to every coin. There are also cons that correspond to the pros you mentioned.

Accessible loans? Also means debt and more people potentially digging themselves in and being owned by banks.
Background checks? Also means it's harder to hide and get a new ID after you make a mistake (second chances are harder to come by), which may drive people deeper into criminal activity.

This is what I don't like about politics -- people tend to be very one sided about things, ideological and full of rhetoric. It's very easy to do unless you go out of your way to challenge assumptions (it's great that you're doing that).
The real issues come down to empirical matters (like how loans affect the economy and quality of life), and hardly anybody is actually interested in the evidence.

But what is China doing? They're launching a limited opt-in trial of the system which will run for four or five years, during which they will gather data and see how it works. If it works well and has beneficial outcomes, they will make it automatic and nation-wide.

That sounds suspiciously scientific to me.
You'd almost think they were rational atheists in charge with a scientific world view and without any political opponents around to polarize their stances on things and lock them into arbitrary positions based on rhetoric or pandering.
Oh, wait...