Are there vegan cults?

[Lightningman_42]

So I recently saw this video* by a-bas-le-ciel, in which he discusses the inevitability of cults relating to veganism. I'd like to know if any of you know of examples of vegan cults that already exist. When I say "vegan cults", I'm talking about communities that are just like the Jewish community that was described in the video, but are based upon veganism rather than Judaism.

Interesting thought experiment posed by a-bas-le-ciel:
1. Would you want to live in an exclusively vegan community?
2. If so, how much would you be willing sacrifice for it?

My answers:
1. No. Not yet, anyways. Only if the rest of the world is mostly vegan anyways (or at least a large surrounding region, like all of California or all of U.S.).
2. Nothing.

I would not want to live in such a community for various reasons:

First off, I don't want or need an echo chamber. I'd be restricting my opportunities to meet nonvegans who might be willing to go vegan if presented with adequate information. It's incredible how many rational & compassionate people are out there who aren't yet vegan because they lack the knowledge & confidence needed to make the change. I'd be restricting my ability to introduce nonvegans to the aspects of vegan lifestyles which I'm experienced with, like delicious vegan foods. I like to impress nonvegans with my sinfully-delicious creations; especially my lasagna**, burritos, falafel dinners, gingerbread cookies, apple-pie, and pecan-pie.

Secondly, this community involves sacrifices that aren't rewarding to me. An exclusively vegan grocery store might be more expensive in order to cater to a small group within society (would it? I'm not sure). If I want to shop for vegan food, I can easily get what I want from my nearby Trader Joe's and local produce store. Just because they sell nonvegan food too, doesn't make it hard to find what I want. Shops don't deserve any moral blame for selling nonvegan foods, because for shops to go vegan would not reduce total demand for such products. Consumers have the responsibility to avoid animal-derived foods.

Everyone: I highly recommend subscribing to a-bas-le-ciel!

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qibyKm7Y9c

**I follow the VBMC's recipe ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZns7LYIpsw ), with some slight modifications. I like to break apart blocks of extra-firm tofu (I use 198 grams total) into tiny pieces such that they becomes a clumpy paste resembling ricotta cheese. I then mix it into the tahini sauce in each layer. I sometimes create alternating layers of tahini sauce and muhammara. It's even better that way!
The VBMC encourages his viewers to be adventurous and use what ingredients they like. Here's what I use:
-9 large lasagna noodles
-1 finely chopped onion
-2 bell peppers of different colors
-Lots of mushrooms (white and/or brown)
-About 1lb (0.4536 kg) of spinach
-1 large jar of TJ's tomato basil marinara sauce
-Tahini sauce and/or muhammara (preferably some of both)
-1 tsp of chili powder
-0.125 tsp of cayenne powder

[brimstoneSalad]

I'd like to know if any of you know of examples of vegan cults that already exist. When I say "vegan cults", I'm talking about communities that are just like the Jewish community that was described in the video, but are based upon veganism rather than Judaism.

I don't know of any. There are some kind of cults based on organic farming (mix of organic vegans, and people raising chickens, etc.). Also may be some raw cults, which tend to be vegan, but not always.

Ching Hai's cult (they run loving hut) is vegan, but it's not based on veganism (it just happens to be -- some cults are incidentally vegan).

There are a couple forums that are vegetarians/vegans (and people trying to go veg.) only, I think veggieboards. That comes close. From what I know, they don't allow most discussion there (either about meat, or usually even dairy/eggs). Pretty big echo chamber, although lots of varying religious beliefs.

Interesting thought experiment posed by a-bas-le-ciel:
1. Would you want to live in an exclusively vegan community?
2. If so, how much would you be willing sacrifice for it?

1. Yes, I want that vegan grocery store/nearby vegan restaurants, that sounds great. It's also important for those with children to raise them with non-carnist peers, otherwise they will likely become carnists.
2. To the point of the stores/restaurants, a sacrifice equivalent to the convenience it provides. For those with Children, the need is higher and the sacrifice should be comparable to the harm that would be caused by bringing carnists into the world.

I would also add: for those at any appreciable risk of recidivism, like those with children, the need is also much greater. Community helps people stay vegan.

First off, I don't want or need an echo chamber.

You don't need one, but some weak willed people who would cave to peer pressure may.
Children also need peers who are vegan; they are too vulnerable to peer pressure and brain washing into cultural normalcy (they certainly need debate to develop good critical thinking skills, but those peers they are emotionally close to should not be pressuring them to be indifferent to animal suffering to fit in).

I'd be restricting my opportunities to meet nonvegans who might be willing to go vegan if presented with adequate information. It's incredible how many rational & compassionate people are out there who aren't yet vegan because they lack the knowledge & confidence needed to make the change. I'd be restricting my ability to introduce nonvegans to the aspects of vegan lifestyles which I'm experienced with, like delicious vegan foods. I like to impress nonvegans with my sinfully-delicious creations; especially my lasagna**, burritos, falafel dinners, gingerbread cookies, apple-pie, and pecan-pie.

Or, it might be a place where people go to become vegan, and you could show the newbies the ropes.

Secondly, this community involves sacrifices that aren't rewarding to me. An exclusively vegan grocery store might be more expensive in order to cater to a small group within society (would it? I'm not sure).

It could be cheaper, due to higher turnover of vegan products. For example, they may make tofu fresh on site for 1/10th the price that you would normally buy it.
Particularly if there were enough people to have two grocery stores, they would be in competition.

It would stimulate a local economy, and even allow creation of coops for these things.
If we even had twenty vegans in the same place, we could optimize food production with a small investment in some processing machines.

Avoiding an echo chamber is challenging, but there are clear economic benefits. Jews experience those too, since they tend to eat in particular ways, and even wear particular clothing too. Since there are material benefits, it doesn't have to be a net sacrifice; any apparent sacrifice could be outweighed by the benefits. People aren't necessarily just forming communities because they want echo chambers.

[Lightningman_42]

Yes, I want that vegan grocery store/nearby vegan restaurants, that sounds great.

Vegan restaurants! Yes! In my experience they're quite rare (I've been to one in Mountain View, CA). I'd like some of those near wherever I'm living. I would also like a vegan grocery store, under the condition that it being vegan results in lower prices on certain vegan foods than what you'd normally find. I was worried that a grocery store being vegan might make it more expensive, but it sounds like you're insisting that this wouldn't be the case.

It's also important for those with children to raise them with non-carnist peers, otherwise they will likely become carnists.

This is something that I'm worried about. While I don't expect to be a father any time soon, I would at some point in my life like to have children (maybe in 10 to 15 years or so). How can I find non-carnist peers for my kids if vegans are so rare?

To the point of the stores/restaurants, a sacrifice equivalent to the convenience it provides. For those with Children, the need is higher and the sacrifice should be comparable to the harm that would be caused by bringing carnists into the world.

Makes sense, but I think that a-bas-le-ciel was asking us what level of sacrifice we think would really be worth it (to be less than, or equal at most, to the sacrifice). As you said, any of us who want a vegan community should make "a sacrifice equivalent to the convenience it provides", but how do we determine this? How do we weigh the relative values of the sacrifice and the benefit?

I would also add: for those at any appreciable risk of recidivism, like those with children, the need is also much greater. Community helps people stay vegan.

Right.

First off, I don't want or need an echo chamber.

You don't need one, but some weak willed people who would cave to peer pressure may.
Children also need peers who are vegan; they are too vulnerable to peer pressure and brain washing into cultural normalcy (they certainly need debate to develop good critical thinking skills, but those peers they are emotionally close to should not be pressuring them to be indifferent to animal suffering to fit in).

Children should also have some exposure to people who actually have a decent understanding of nutrition. I ate meat until I was 18 years old (and dairy/eggs for another 2 years thereafter) because of both nutritional delusions, and peer pressure.

Secondly, this community involves sacrifices that aren't rewarding to me. An exclusively vegan grocery store might be more expensive in order to cater to a small group within society (would it? I'm not sure).

It could be cheaper, due to higher turnover of vegan products. For example, they may make tofu fresh on site for 1/10th the price that you would normally buy it.
Particularly if there were enough people to have two grocery stores, they would be in competition.

It would stimulate a local economy, and even allow creation of coops for these things.
If we even had twenty vegans in the same place, we could optimize food production with a small investment in some processing machines.

Tasty, fresh, cheap tofu! Yes!

[brimstoneSalad]

I was worried that a grocery store being vegan might make it more expensive, but it sounds like you're insisting that this wouldn't be the case.

If there's only one, that can be the case, but competition breeds lower prices. If there's a high enough demand for tofu, different brands will undercut each other, and provide better products for a lower price point.

Get enough vegans in the same place, and there will be multiple small businesses producing tofu and mock meats, and the prices will be very competitive.

In my experience, though, vegan grocery stores aren't necessarily much more expensive, particularly for staples like TVP or nutritional yeast which they'll sell in bulk at very reasonable prices.
They also have a higher turnover on things like vegan cheeses, and can order those in more bulk from the makers to cut costs.

How can I find non-carnist peers for my kids if vegans are so rare?

You move somewhere they aren't so rare. In some hypothetical scenario where you moved to the same area where I live (and maybe a couple other forum members), all of our vegan kids could play together and have good peer influences.

This is where a vegan apartment bock (or subdivision) would come in very handy.

Makes sense, but I think that a-bas-le-ciel was asking us what level of sacrifice we think would really be worth it (to be less than, or equal at most, to the sacrifice). As you said, any of us who want a vegan community should make "a sacrifice equivalent to the convenience it provides", but how do we determine this? How do we weigh the relative values of the sacrifice and the benefit?

I just don't think he's looking at it the right way, because for most situations like this there's so much value added that sacrifice is kind of irrelevant.

Let's say we found 500 vegans who each had twenty thousand dollars. Working together, we could incorporate an HOA and build a small subdivision (gated, or whatever) where there was none at the edge of a city somewhere, and the land which cost $10,000 an acre or something when purchased would increase in value drastically because of the development (all of the businesses and entertainment areas popping up to make it a place to live).
The common demand for tofu and veggies would stimulate local economy and small businesses. People making soaps, cleaning products, fixing bikes, opening gyms, etc.
The base level of demand from the local community would sustain the businesses and help them through the rough patches at the beginning, and then they could grow to serve a wider community outside those original 500 to pull in more money to the community, and additional lots could be sold at fair market values (which are now higher) to newcomers.

The problem with most of these "eco" communes is that they're incompetently run without any notion of psychology or economics.
Jews know how to do it right, though.

I don't think sacrifice is part of the equation if you're forming a community for the right reasons -- for the benefits it provides -- rather than just to avoid people you don't agree with or be in an echo chamber.

An echo chamber can be an unfortunate side effect, but there are many pragmatic reasons to form a community.

Children should also have some exposure to people who actually have a decent understanding of nutrition.

In terms of a community, that's easier. Jews will set up their own daycares and private schools to serve the local Jewish population; nutrition could easily be a staple of that basic education for vegan kids (instead of Torah and Hebrew).

I wouldn't really want to home school, and yet I would feel compelled to because of the lack of good alternatives outside the context of a community.

[inator]

In my experience, though, vegan grocery stores aren't necessarily much more expensive, particularly for staples like TVP or nutritional yeast which they'll sell in bulk at very reasonable prices.
They also have a higher turnover on things like vegan cheeses, and can order those in more bulk from the makers to cut costs.

In my experience, the problem with many vegan grocery stores is that they're often exclusivelly bio, which makes them unnecessarily expensive. And all of their palm oil filled junk foods are also more expensive than typical junk foods for no good reason; their drug store products tend to be 'all natural', with higher prices and important sacrifices in quality.
They do offer a higher diversity of mock meats and cheeses, if that's your thing. But I wouldn't do all of my grocery shopping there.

In terms of a community, that's easier. Jews will set up their own daycares and private schools to serve the local Jewish population; nutrition could easily be a staple of that basic education for vegan kids (instead of Torah and Hebrew).

Do you think that the benefits of such a community in keeping kids vegan outweigh the cost of vegans interacting less with the "real world", therefore lessening their ability to have an influence on others in their daily lives?

There's a compound effect of my influencing others to become vegan (or at least to reduce their use of animal products), and then their affecting others around them. And that may be greater than the effect of having a higher chance of keeping (say) two kids vegan.

You move somewhere they aren't so rare. In some hypothetical scenario where you moved to the same area where I live (and maybe a couple other forum members), all of our vegan kids could play together and have good peer influences.
This is where a vegan apartment bock (or subdivision) would come in very handy.

That sounds ideal.

Most communities form by aggregating people with similar values who already live in the same area. I'd have no problem doing that if:
1. almost every vegan I've ever met in person wasn't the deontological type;
2. I didn't care a lot more about influencing meat eaters than irrational vegans.
(I'm considering the fact that, if they become more rational, then their activism may become more effective. But if they live in a tight-knit community with little interaction with meat-eaters, then what's the point?)

[brimstoneSalad]

In my experience, the problem with many vegan grocery stores is that they're often exclusivelly bio, which makes them unnecessarily expensive.

Yes, if they're organic focused, then all bets are off. I wouldn't rather live in some organic obsessed community.

Do you think that the benefits of such a community in keeping kids vegan outweigh the cost of vegans interacting less with the "real world", therefore lessening their ability to have an influence on others in their daily lives?

Yes, I do. "Friendship evangelism", as the Christians call it, isn't very effective activism. In my personal life (people I incidentally run into at work, or where I live) I have influenced maybe three or four people to reduce animal product consumption.

The old proverb "Don't shit where you sleep" is relevant here. We are disinclined, and for good reason, to rock the boat at work or with our neighbors, and because of this are very unlikely to significantly influence them over a lifetime of interaction.
School is the best place to do so, but still, we don't spend much time there after we graduate.

Leafleting, on the other hand, or producing content on the internet, is much more effective. And the ability to find peers to do these things with makes them more enjoyable and practical (ever try to leaflet on your own? Ever do it in a group?).

I think influence on the outside world would be better enacted from within the support group of a community. Passive influence is overrated, I think because it's easy and people want to feel good about doing very little. Don't get me wrong -- being a "normal" vegan is way better than being weird and making veganism look impossible, and influencing a half-dozen people in your life is good, but you do a lot more in an afternoon of leafleting with friends than you do over a lifetime of passive influence.

But perhaps you've had more success in encouraging coworkers and neighbors/other acquaintances to go vegan or drastically reduce animal product consumption than I have.

1. almost every vegan I've ever met in person wasn't the deontological type;

I think most people are just confused at some point between consequentialism and deontology. I haven't found it overly difficult to convince most people away from deontology. Once you agree on the core point, the discussion goes pretty smoothly.

But yes, it would have to be a mainly consequential vegan community, avoiding the extremist ideological or radical influences. One wouldn't want people firebombing animal testing facilities; that wouldn't be helpful to be associated with criminals.

One would need to foster an environment of critical thinking, and reason and evidence based approach.

[Lightningman_42]

You move somewhere they aren't so rare. In some hypothetical scenario where you moved to the same area where I live (and maybe a couple other forum members), all of our vegan kids could play together and have good peer influences.
This is where a vegan apartment bock (or subdivision) would come in very handy.

Vegan apartment block. Yeah that sounds like a good idea! Ideally I'd want my kid(s) to be surrounded by plenty of other vegan kids near their homes, and yet also have exposure to carnists and vegan-curious nonvegans. That way they'd have enough of a supportive community to avoid caving in to negative peer pressure, and yet also gain experience interacting with others who don't share their knowledge of, or views on ethics.
It would be especially cool for me to meet you (I'd really like to) and other members of the forum, although I admit that this is unlikely to ever happen. I like having a supportive online community here on this forum, even though I'll likely never meet the people behind these online aliases/avatars.
At some point in my life though, I'd like to find a community of vegans I can interact with in person, and not just through computers. This would be especially important if/when I have kids, so I do think I might need to move to such a place as you've described (vegan apartment block).

[brimstoneSalad]

Vegan apartment block. Yeah that sounds like a good idea! Ideally I'd want my kid(s) to be surrounded by plenty of other vegan kids near their homes, and yet also have exposure to carnists and vegan-curious nonvegans. That way they'd have enough of a supportive community to avoid caving in to negative peer pressure, and yet also gain experience interacting with others who don't share their knowledge of, or views on ethics.

There is probably some optimal ratio. Since school is an effective environment to spread ideas (by a well educated child), sending a well prepared child to public schools could be useful, and encouraging him or her to engage in debate.

[inator]

I think influence on the outside world would be better enacted from within the support group of a community. Passive influence is overrated, I think because it's easy and people want to feel good about doing very little. Don't get me wrong -- being a "normal" vegan is way better than being weird and making veganism look impossible, and influencing a half-dozen people in your life is good, but you do a lot more in an afternoon of leafleting with friends than you do over a lifetime of passive influence.

I'm not just talking about passive influence. People are curious and ask questions, which is a great opportunity to have repeated discussions and give them resources to research the topic further.

I think the two methods (leafleting and personal interactions) are coactive. While creating content may have greater effects overall, few people would even consider practising what's online or on those leaflets if they hadn't personally met at least one person who made veganism seem accessible and normal. And you can always do both.

A stronger sense of community would certainly do vegans a lot of good and help them cooperate more effectively, but I think that trying to isolate ourselves from the outside world would do more harm than good. First because of less interaction with meat eaters and second because of the cult image that it would give off.

The old proverb "Don't shit where you sleep" is relevant here. We are disinclined, and for good reason, to rock the boat at work or with our neighbors, and because of this are very unlikely to significantly influence them over a lifetime of interaction.
School is the best place to do so, but still, we don't spend much time there after we graduate.

I don't really consider discussing veganism to mean "rocking the boat", but I guess that also depends on the nature of your work and your daily interactions. Lifestyles and jobs that involve meeting a lot of people and regularly working with new teams may be better suited for that.

[brimstoneSalad]

I'm not just talking about passive influence. People are curious and ask questions, which is a great opportunity to have repeated discussions and give them resources to research the topic further.

How many of your neighbors have you influenced to go vegan?
I haven't exchanged more than a couple words with mine. I don't see how not living by carnists would make much of a difference, since I don't really interact with my neighbors anyway.

School, as I noted, is a good environment for this. Both the larger number of encounters and shorter duration (so if you make enemies, you don't have to live by them) are beneficial, and you have nothing to lose from troubling people with debate.

but I guess that also depends on the nature of your work and your daily interactions. Lifestyles and jobs that involve meeting a lot of people and regularly working with new teams may be better suited for that.

Right. If you're a nurse or doctor, or coach, or teacher something else with a lot of exposure to many different people and opportunities to talk about ethics and veganism or health, then you absolutely want exposure to carnists.

For most jobs, that's just not going to come up, and bringing it up is going to harm your prospects.

If you're selling cars, that might not be the best time to talk about veganism with the people you're trying to sell cars to, despite the large number of interactions. Even if you're a waitress or a cashier something, it might be harmful to your employment security to try to casually bring that stuff up.

I think the two methods (leafleting and personal interactions) are coactive. While creating content may have greater effects overall, few people would even consider practising what's online or on those leaflets if they hadn't personally met at least one person who made veganism seem accessible and normal.

I don't agree. Most of the vegans I meet online say they don't know any vegans in person. I don't think it's really a prerequisite. Celebrities and atheletes that people are inspired by but don't know personally may be more effective to normalize veganism on a broad scale.

That said, I don't think it's harmful to be a normal vegan and a good influence on people, but I think you're exaggerating the effect.

And you can always do both.

What if focusing on one reduces your ability to do the other?

Like deciding to live among more carnists on the odd chance you might influence your neighbor, and as a result you do less leafleting because you're not a part of an activism group close to where you live (and there are none available).

A stronger sense of community would certainly do vegans a lot of good and help them cooperate more effectively, but I think that trying to isolate ourselves from the outside world would do more harm than good. First because of less interaction with meat eaters and second because of the cult image that it would give off.

Leafleting isn't isolation. There's a lot of interaction when you do that. If you're living around vegans for isolation, you're doing it for the wrong reason.

à-bas-le-ciel has another video here, which I think is much more important and relevant to activism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UezI3u8iXA

Convenient friendships with fellow vegans is essential for most people to do good work.

Living in an area with more vegan neighbors (or even all vegan neighbors) doesn't stop you from also going out and just meeting people. Carnists, unlike vegans, are not hard to find.
You don't reduce your ability to meet carnists as much by living around vegans as you reduce your ability to meet vegans by living around carnists.

We need more groups of vegans meeting up and doing good things together.