Philosophical Vegan Forum

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:31 pm**

This ought to be interesting because by my own admission, I am a carnivore. Interesting, because with every topic on virtually any subject, there are those who are tolerant and respectful of people's choices and then there are usually some who respond with both 'barrels' drawn, ready to judge, attack, serve a heaping dose of guilt and ultimately try to convert the person, whom they believe should follow more along their lines of thought or life style. I'm still trying to figure out why Vegan and Atheist are clumped together here. I mean, aside from the likelihood that the owner of this website is probably both a vegan and an atheist, these two have nothing to do with one another. At least not that I can see.
For anyone out there who is even thinking of trying to convert me to a vegan diet, please don't.

That being said, I have viewed some of your videos on You Tube that dealt with the Koran and the Bible and found some of your points quite thought provoking. I have never read the Koran, but know that if the writings itself are anything like those found in the bible, I didn't miss much. What I would find really interesting, would be to hear the views of a few psychologists who are either atheist or spiritual. Their perspective on how and why people are so influenced by religion could be very valuable in understanding what drives some to be so fanatical. Personally, I suspect that the inevitable result called death has much to do with it. The fear of the unknown or even worse, of hell is so great that it gives many a certain comfort to believe that if they follow a, b, and c, in life, God or Allah will spare them from an eternity of pain.

Anyway, I look forward to watching more videos... Hello to all!

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:57 pm**

Tacoma wrote: For anyone out there who is even thinking of trying to convert me to a vegan diet, please don't.

If you are not open minded and willing to have discussions, then this may not be the forum for you. This forum is based on a free exchange of ideas, which also means you may hear things you may not want to hear.

Tacoma wrote: I mean, aside from the likelihood that the owner of this website is probably both a vegan and an atheist, these two have nothing to do with one another. At least not that I can see.

For most people, they have quite a bit to do with each other.

Veganism, as a philosophy of life and ethics, is about trying to abstain from unnecessary harm of other intelligent beings. It's the most objective and unbiased form of ethics available which is not based on any religious ideas -- just respect for other sentient beings' wills.

Atheism itself is just a lack of theism, which comes by default with a lack of ethics -- atheism is missing something extremely important (that's a main criticism of atheism by theists) -- so, for many atheists, if they want to be good people, they will seek out a system of ethics to follow, and the most consistent and rational system of practical ethics (in terms of application) available today to most people is veganism (the most intelligent atheists will ultimately find that is the most rational conclusion).

So, they don't necessarily have to have something to do with each other, but that's like saying bicycles and helmets don't have anything to do with each other -- but if you want to ride a bike, you should wear a helmet, rather than putting yourself in greater danger. If you want to be an atheist, you should adopt a form of ethics (which will include veganism if you are rational) to replace the (inferior) one provided by religion, rather than becoming a nihilist.

Make sense?

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:13 pm**

Welcome to the forum.

Tacoma wrote:This ought to be interesting because by my own admission, I am a carnivore.

Er... you eat only meat?

Tacoma wrote:Interesting, because with every topic on virtually any subject, there are those who are tolerant and respectful of people's choices and then there are usually some who respond with both 'barrels' drawn, ready to judge, attack, serve a heaping dose of guilt and ultimately try to convert the person, whom they believe should follow more along their lines of thought or life style.

What do you mean, guilt tripping? We believe that what you're doing is unethical... so what are we supposed to say? How are we supposed to convince you to stop doing something because it's unethical without pointing that out?

How is anyone supposed to ever convince another person to stop doing anything wrong without 'guilt tripping'?

Why should people be respectful of unethical choices?
I'm not saying we should be disrespectful towards people, but their ideas are not automatically warranted respect.

Ultimately try to convert the person? ...That's what activism is.
By your logic, we shouldn't protest Donald Trump. We wouldn't want to 'convert' anyone to our way of thinking, right?

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:21 pm**

Ignore this post of mine. I accidentally posted the relevent post below, twice.

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:32 pm**

Hi Tacoma, welcome to the forum.

I hope you think carefully about what brimstoneSalad and EquALLity have already said. If you value knowledge, and the ability to think objectively about moral issues, then I hope that you will have an open mind towards veganism.

I'm curious to know if you've ever criticized religious theists for clinging to delusions that are dear to them, which they are unwilling to even analyze (from an outsider's perspective), despite the harm that they might cause to our fellow human beings. If you come across someone with beliefs, which you are convinced are both delusional and harmful, would you then respect those beliefs, simply because they are dear to those who hold them?

If not, then it should not surprise you that vegans often challenge the beliefs and actions of nonvegans for similar reasons. By the way, I do insist that vegans can criticize your actions without condemning your character. If you're rational, you'll likely welcome criticism of your actions, and in turn criticize others' actions. By reflecting on our actions, hopefully we can all improve. No need for us to use ad-hominems on you.

One of the most common criticisms of vegans is that we are generally, "Rude, obnoxious, and intolerant of nonvegans' lifestyle choices". Please notice that this is a criticism specifically of vegans (people who practice and promote a certain moral philosophy), but is not at all a criticism of the philosophy itself. If you'd like to reach a rational conclusion about veganism (particularly, how practical and useful it is in terms of its results, and whether or not you yourself ought to practice it), then you're going to have to be open to hearing the reasoning it's based on.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:26 pm**

brimstoneSalad wrote:
Tacoma wrote: For anyone out there who is even thinking of trying to convert me to a vegan diet, please don't.
If you are not open minded and willing to have discussions, then this may not be the forum for you. This forum is based on a free exchange of ideas, which also means you may hear things you may not want to hear.

Tacoma wrote: I mean, aside from the likelihood that the owner of this website is probably both a vegan and an atheist, these two have nothing to do with one another. At least not that I can see.
For most people, they have quite a bit to do with each other.

Veganism, as a philosophy of life and ethics, is about trying to abstain from unnecessary harm of other intelligent beings. It's the most objective and unbiased form of ethics available which is not based on any religious ideas -- just respect for other sentient beings' wills.

Atheism itself is just a lack of theism, which comes by default with a lack of ethics -- atheism is missing something extremely important (that's a main criticism of atheism by theists) -- so, for many atheists, if they want to be good people, they will seek out a system of ethics to follow, and the most consistent and rational system of practical ethics (in terms of application) available today to most people is veganism (the most intelligent atheists will ultimately find that is the most rational conclusion).

So, they don't necessarily have to have something to do with each other, but that's like saying bicycles and helmets don't have anything to do with each other -- but if you want to ride a bike, you should wear a helmet, rather than putting yourself in greater danger. If you want to be an atheist, you should adopt a form of ethics (which will include veganism if you are rational) to replace the (inferior) one provided by religion, rather than becoming a nihilist.

Make sense?

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:30 pm**

I just spent over three hours on a reply and when I wanted to post it, I was asked to log back in, so I did. Unfortunately, my response somehow got erased. I will try again soon.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:36 pm**

Tacoma wrote:I just spent over three hours on a reply and when I wanted to post it, I was asked to log back in, so I did. Unfortunately, my response somehow got erased. I will try again soon.

When that happens, push the back button, copy the text, then log in and paste it when you reply.

Although it's usually best to compose long posts in a word processing program anyway, and save often.

Philosophical Vegan Forum

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