General philosophy message board for Discussion and debate on other philosophical issues not directly related to veganism. Metaphysics, religion, theist vs. atheist debates, politics, general science discussion, etc.
We already know Alcoholics Anonymous is not a program designed for atheists. 6 of the famed “12 Steps” refer to a Higher Power/God. There are secular alternatives, but nothing with the size and scope of AA.
why is it ppl praise God for overcoming there addiction why do they need God -- what about the Doctors , therapists , family members , friends and themselves who help them and carry on supporting them to over come such issue .
i dont understand God's forgiveness -- my friend was horribly abused by an ex she dose not forgive him -- she is not bitter or angry but she simply can not forgive him but lives a very happy life regardless without contact w/ the ex , however the ex has said '' no matter what i do you have forgive me '' he is obv a sociopath but he says Jesus forgives him on her behalf so he dose not need or seek her forgiveness and instead of changing his ways he is still as abusive as ever -- this is twisted . how can you sleep well rationalising another entity forgives you for a crime and harm you committed against another person.
Vicarious redemption is one of the most evil premises you will ever find in religion. It's the basis of most Christianity, but you can also find it in many other religions, even the very superstitious modern incarnations of Buddhism where instead of actually being better people, in order to get free karma they buy fish to release into a lake from which the fish were just caught in order for them to buy and release (it's a whole industry, and all it does is harm the fish). If they're not local to the lake, you're probably just putting them into shock and feeding them to bigger fish.
Anyway, the point is that it's sick, and it's a cancer that pervades most religions. To be fair, there are some forms of Christianity that reject salvation by faith and do actually believe in good works.
Anyway, as to twelve step programs, you may want to check out the Penn and Teller Bullshit episode on that.
Vicarious redemption -- so what ur saying is that jesus can forgive a rapist on behalf of the victim and thats cool ? even if the victim dose not forgive the offender -- no wonder her ex is a '' Christian '' and to seems to be at peace for it. id have a hard time treating ppl like that
vievaisobelle wrote:Vicarious redemption -- so what ur saying is that jesus can forgive a rapist on behalf of the victim and thats cool ? even if the victim dose not forgive the offender -- no wonder her ex is a '' Christian '' and to seems to be at peace for it. id have a hard time treating ppl like that
Basically, and you don't have to do anything to make amends or become a better person or even stop raping. Just ask Jesus and accept him into your heart. His gift of forgiveness is free, as long as you believe in him. But if you don't believe in him, you can never be forgiven no matter what you do and you will go to hell (like if you once stepped on a person's toe -- hell forever!).
vievaisobelle wrote:Vicarious redemption -- so what ur saying is that jesus can forgive a rapist on behalf of the victim and thats cool ? even if the victim dose not forgive the offender -- no wonder her ex is a '' Christian '' and to seems to be at peace for it. id have a hard time treating ppl like that
Basically, and you don't have to do anything to make amends or become a better person or even stop raping. Just ask Jesus and accept him into your heart. His gift of forgiveness is free, as long as you believe in him. But if you don't believe in him, you can never be forgiven no matter what you do and you will go to hell (like if you once stepped on a person's toe -- hell forever!).
what if your a good and moral person without jesus like Aung San Suu Kyi or me I'm not perfect but over all i treat ppl better than i treat myself. do you go to hell then ?
vievaisobelle wrote:
what if your a good and moral person without jesus like Aung San Suu Kyi or me I'm not perfect but over all i treat ppl better than i treat myself. do you go to hell then ?
According to Christian dogma, yes, you will go to hell and be tortured for eternity. Why? Because you weren't perfect. Maybe one time when you were two years old you told a lie. Only Jesus can ever forgive sins, so for that single lie you will go to hell forever.
But a serial killer and rapist, genocidal maniac, would go to heaven if he asked Jesus for forgiveness two seconds before he died.
vievaisobelle wrote:
what if your a good and moral person without jesus like Aung San Suu Kyi or me I'm not perfect but over all i treat ppl better than i treat myself. do you go to hell then ?
According to Christian dogma, yes, you will go to hell and be tortured for eternity. Why? Because you weren't perfect. Maybe one time when you were two years old you told a lie. Only Jesus can ever forgive sins, so for that single lie you will go to hell forever.
But a serial killer and rapist, genocidal maniac, would go to heaven if he asked Jesus for forgiveness two seconds before he died.
-- what about the Doctors , therapists , family members , friends and themselves who help them and carry on supporting them to over come such issue .
