Philosophical Vegan Forum

So Obama has sent out a warning to all pubic schools in the U.S. that if they do not allow transgender students to use the restroom they identify as the school will lose Federal Funding and may get a lawsuit.

Do you feel like this going to far? I don't but at same time I do. What if a public school is so against this and go on strike? It wouldn't last long tho. I guess I am just overthinking the 'What ifs'.

Here is the letter they sent out http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Secti ... udents.pdf

And here is the news report about it http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oba ... ce-n573621

Wow, that's amazing!
I completely agree with this decision. This is a civil rights issue. It's no different than forcing public schools to have interracial restrooms.

I'm really impressed that Obama did this. It's not really something I'd expect given how centrist he's been. If only he would fight for things like getting money out of politics and regulating corporations as vigorously.

I must say this issue has really made me think. I think the main issue people have is a biological man/boy in the girls restroom. (Because someone may see a penis?) Although the issue of a transgender boy using a urinal has never came up. I think we're moving to the point where bathrooms should just be separate unisex stalls. We all pee and poop, give people a private spot, and who cares who's going in the next stall.

PsYcHo wrote:I think we're moving to the point where bathrooms should just be separate unisex stalls. We all pee and poop, give people a private spot, and who cares who's going in the next stall.

Yep. That's how it is in a lot of places.

PsYcHo wrote:I must say this issue has really made me think. I think the main issue people have is a biological man/boy in the girls restroom. (Because someone may see a penis?) Although the issue of a transgender boy using a urinal has never came up. I think we're moving to the point where bathrooms should just be separate unisex stalls. We all pee and poop, give people a private spot, and who cares who's going in the next stall.

I agree, so much of this debate could be solved if unisex bathrooms were implemented, but people aren't really keen on both sexes sharing the same lavatory.

While pondering this issue, another question popped into mind. Is it really a fear of Transgender people in the bathroom/locker room that causes such trepidation among people, or is it merely the fact that Americans have an issue with nudity in general. In the case of pre-adolescent transgender persons, sexual activity should not be an issue. (There are a few documentaries on this I suggest anyone on the fence about this issue watch, but I feel no need to link them as they are easily found on you-tube.) Mainly, "I don't want my daughter/son to see a penis/vagina!", seem to be the real argument. (The sexual predator argument is so asinine, I find it hard to believe people really worry that someone who breaks the law to rape someone would obey the law about which bathroom to go into. And of course no predator would prey on someone of the same sex..cough..Catholic priests...cough..) And unless I am very comfortable with someone, just because they happen to be a gender I find sexually attractive, that doesn't mean I am comfortable using the bathroom in their presence. (Even if you and your parents have a good relationship, do you really want them in the same room when you void your bowels?)

Thoughts on this?

PsYcHo wrote:While pondering this issue, another question popped into mind. Is it really a fear of Transgender people in the bathroom/locker room that causes such trepidation among people, or is it merely the fact that Americans have an issue with nudity in general. In the case of pre-adolescent transgender persons, sexual activity should not be an issue. (There are a few documentaries on this I suggest anyone on the fence about this issue watch, but I feel no need to link them as they are easily found on you-tube.) Mainly, "I don't want my daughter/son to see a penis/vagina!", seem to be the real argument. (The sexual predator argument is so asinine, I find it hard to believe people really worry that someone who breaks the law to rape someone would obey the law about which bathroom to go into. And of course no predator would prey on someone of the same sex..cough..Catholic priests...cough..) And unless I am very comfortable with someone, just because they happen to be a gender I find sexually attractive, that doesn't mean I am comfortable using the bathroom in their presence. (Even if you and your parents have a good relationship, do you really want them in the same room when you void your bowels?)

Thoughts on this?

Hm, I don't think so.
I think that the real issue behind it in most cases is people being bigoted towards transgender people. After all, that's what republicans used to blatantly appeal to. Now they changed their presentation of their reasoning, but I think it stayed the same.

I don't see the issue with nudity in the bathroom. You're covered by the stall. How is that any different than being covered by clothing?

Also, I was surprised and disappointed today to find out that a friend I have is against trans people being able to use whatever bathroom they identify with. She's basically against it on religious grounds (she's Muslim), which really irritates me.

At first, she went with the predator thing, but she revealed later that she basically doesn't like trans people.
"I just think it's stupid to change your whole gender because of how you feel."

I explained that they usually have always identified with that gender, and that gender is basically a mindset (we associate certain things with femininity and others with masculinity, and it really isn't connected in any non-arbitrary way to your biology), but she disagreed, saying gender = sex and that it doesn't matter what society says (she agreed that society associates certain things with the two primary genders).

She literally said that her reasoning about this and not wanting trans people to use their preferred bathroom is religious. I explained that that was as bad as Christians who are against gay marriage because of their religion, and it's not ok to take peoples' rights away because of your religious beliefs. She said that she 'doesn't like' gay marriage, but wasn't really clear about whether or not she thinks it should be legal.

It's so disappointing what religion does to people. Last year, when I didn't really know her as well, she went to an anti-bullying of LGBTQPA+ students event at my school.

EquALLity wrote: Hm, I don't think so.
I think that the real issue behind it in most cases is people being bigoted towards transgender people. After all, that's what republicans used to blatantly appeal to. Now they changed their presentation of their reasoning, but I think it stayed the same.

I don't see the issue with nudity in the bathroom. You're covered by the stall. How is that any different than being covered by clothing?

What about showers and locker rooms? I cant speak for schools, as I avoided the showers successfully, but when I went to camp all the boys and girls showered communally (separated by gender) I don't think that all people that are concerned by this are just bigots. I'm not comfortable being naked around anyone I am not about to or have already had sex with. The irony of this being that I am bi-sexual. (Which is great, because straight and gay people often call us "confused". A common term used by gays especially is "unicorn", because supposedly we don't really exist. ) This is why I have the supposition that at least part of the worry with it is that Americans are uncomfortable with nudity in general.

EquALLity wrote:
Also, I was surprised and disappointed today to find out that a friend I have is against trans people being able to use whatever bathroom they identify with. She's basically against it on religious grounds (she's Muslim), which really irritates me.

It's so disappointing what religion does to people. Last year, when I didn't really know her as well, she went to an anti-bullying of LGBTQPA+ students event at my school.

Maybe she went to the rally because she is against bullying of anyone, regardless of whether she approves of their life choices. Tolerance is different from acceptance. I don't really care if anyone "accepts" my lifestyle with open arms and hugs, or finds it "un-natural"," immoral", or whatever. I do expect people to tolerate it, however, and not attack me physically.

I do agree with you that bigotry plays a large role in people being against this, especially the bathroom part, but I don't think it is the only factor in the showering or changing clothes aspect.

EquALLity wrote: Also, I was surprised and disappointed today to find out that a friend I have is against trans people being able to use whatever bathroom they identify with. She's basically against it on religious grounds (she's Muslim), which really irritates me.

You probably shouldn't have been surprised or disappointed if you already knew she was Muslim. It's like being surprised that a conservative wants lower taxes. (not true 100% of the time, but usually is, and pretty much by definition)
Muslims are much more conservative than Christians today. We also tend to see that people who feel persecuted are not more sensitive to others, but even more cruel to smaller minorities they feel entitled to persecute. Kind of, "the cruelest master is a slave" thing. People who are put down can feel better about themselves by dehumanizing others.

EquALLity wrote: It's so disappointing what religion does to people.

This is why it's practical to avoid the disappointment by making reasonable and statistically validated generalizations. Then, if we happen to meet a legitimately liberal Muslim or Christian some day, we're pleasantly surprised (which is a much happier experience, and validates our relationships rather than undermining them).

Don't put people in boxes they can't get out of based on their religions, but the boxes themselves are not the problem, it's the layers of ducts tape that make a bigot. Just be sure give allowance for people to correct your assumptions and be exempted from those generalizations if and when they make clear that they aren't like other X in that regard.

PsYcHo wrote:What about showers and locker rooms?

I like Obama's quotes about it:
"Anybody who has been in school, in high school, who has been a parent should realize that kids who are sometimes in the minority — kids who have a different sexual orientation or are transgender — are subject to a lot of bullying, potentially,"
"They are vulnerable, and I think it’s part of our obligation as a society to make sure everybody is treated fairly, and our kids are all loved and protected, and that their dignity is affirmed,"

Nudity might play a larger role with locker rooms, but I think it's still primarily bigotry.

PsYcHo wrote:The irony of this being that I am bi-sexual. (Which is great, because straight and gay people often call us "confused". A common term used by gays especially is "unicorn", because supposedly we don't really exist. )

Hahaha, my mom thinks bisexual people are just gay people who "aren't fully out yet".

PsYcHo wrote:Maybe she went to the rally because she is against bullying of anyone, regardless of whether she approves of their life choices. Tolerance is different from acceptance. I don't really care if anyone "accepts" my lifestyle with open arms and hugs, or finds it "un-natural"," immoral", or whatever. I do expect people to tolerate it, however, and not attack me physically.

I don't think so. I don't think she was as religious back then.

PsYcHo wrote:I do agree with you that bigotry plays a large role in people being against this, especially the bathroom part, but I don't think it is the only factor in the showering or changing clothes aspect.

I completely agree.