Philosophical Vegan Forum

Before I start, lemme just make it clear that I do not hate fat people just for being fat. Okay, on with the topic.

I recall a few years ago, I was driving around in the car with my Dad, and we got into a conversation about losing weight. He says that with his new exercise routines and him cutting back on sugars, he went from 190 pounds to about 179 pounds. We then talked about obesity and how about a third of Americans are obese. I coincidentally read a few articles from people about how they are accepting of themselves as being fat, so I told my Dad about that and told him that maybe that's the reason why so many Americans are obese; they just stopped caring about losing weight.
I actually have a link to 2 of the articles I said I read. They are archived here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130129041 ... ntasy.html
https://kateharding.net/faq/but-dont-yo ... unhealthy/
To be honest, I don't know why anyone would be accepting of being fat. I guess they just give up and give in. Where do they get the mentality "Eh, why bother losing weight?", and to be honest it genuinely makes me feel bad for them. I guess they just don't want to bother with losing weight, since it requires a proper diet and going to the gym, and eating junk food and binge watching movies is more rewarding. Now see I'm young: I have a high metabolism so I don't have to work out as much and I can eat slightly more casually. But these people are fully grown adults. Are they that lazy to take some free time to hit the gym, or at least not sit in one spot for 8 hours a day? You can get better; you have have to put an effort towards it. It doesn't have to be overnight; you don't have to switch to vegan the next day (even though that'd be preferred ) and you don't have to hit the gym for 5 hours the next day. Take it slow; slowly change into a reliable diet, and go for 1 hour the first month, 2 the next, and then max that out at 3. Now if you don't have time, you have to at least have some time to change diets.

Fat acceptance is one of the worst things ever conceived by modern society. Obesity, or even being overweight, is not healthy. Whatever made you think that I have no idea. Accepting that you're fat is horrendously degrading to yourself, because you're just saying to yourself: "I can't do it". I think you'd rather be skinny, so you can at least enjoy life a bit more.

Now look, to those who are obese and advocate fat acceptance; I don't feel hatred, rage, contempt, or even resentment towards you; I feel pity towards you.

I agree, it's a harmful idea; in this case, physically harmful. It's much like recognizing ebonics as a second language (harmful to black students, since it divides society).

People have a hard time seeing a middle ground between the extremes of public shaming/ridicule and hatred, and unquestioning acceptance.

A little shame about being overweight is important, and even good, to motivate weight loss -- but it should be shame in the behaviors that contribute the weight gain, and in the fat itself, not of the person in general for anything (otherwise it's hard for them to feel motivated). And we definitely must not shame weight loss efforts (which is a big problem today). Shame is one of those things that, like any medication, has to be carefully measured and balanced.
For people who have nothing about themselves to be proud of, it can be difficult, because all they are is fat, and all that is is shameful -- particularly with all of the myths about it just being a person's natural body type or metabolism, and that it can't be changed, or all of the ridiculous fad diets.
There's so much misinformation out there.

The majority of this fat acceptance thing seems to be about having some respect for overweight individuals and not shaming them as people. I've heard of very few people who actually think that fat is just as healthy as skinny and that there's no value in trying to lose weight.

It's just a reaction to fat shaming, and fat shaming often concerns the aesthetic aspect rather than the health aspect.
Like: "Why is that fat person wearing shorts, that's so disgusting, it's hurting my eyes..." As if people are obligated to dress in a way that pleases other's aesthetic sense and, if they're fat, they shouldn't be allowed to wear the equivalent of what a skinny person might wear.
I guess it's a double edged sword. Some don't care about their health anyway, so they wouldn't take any steps to lose the weight were it not for the aesthetic aspect. But this is also partly why some people get a liposuction or go for crazy fad diets instead of changing their habits. It's not to become healthy, it's to look better. Because that's the main aspect that's being shamed.

Of course losing weight can and should be done, but many of those who have never faced a comparable problem, or haven't had a loved one go through it, have a very hard time understanding how hard it can be and what amount of will is necessary to do it. Will is a limited resource, having the will to refuse a cookie now can affect how much will you'll have left for other activities in your day. And some fat people really want that cookie, much more so than you or me - especially if they're currently trying to lose a lot of weight.
Having some sympathy for others is not just a kindness, it's also a tool of analysis - it gives us a way of figuring out why other people are how they are. If we want to help them, it's important to try to understand what difficulties they have and what's the best way to deal with them, to get them motivated.
Some level of shame may be a temporary motivating factor for some, but generally positive incentives work much better.

^Great post, I completely agree.

inator wrote:The majority of this fat acceptance thing seems to be about having some respect for overweight individuals and not shaming them as people.

This is a distinction EquALLity has tried to draw a few times, but I don't think it works in practice. Shaming any trait or behavior of a person may shame that person (from that person's perspective) if he or she identifies existentially with that trait or behavior.

People strongly identify with their physical appearances, negative or positive, so shaming any aspect related to that can be interpreted as shaming the person, whether intentional or not.

inator wrote:I've heard of very few people who actually think that fat is just as healthy as skinny and that there's no value in trying to lose weight.

I've seen that around, I think it's a growing myth in the fat acceptance and fat positive movements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_at_Every_Size

It may be well intentioned, but it's incredibly harmful, both by denying the science, and by telling people they can't lose weight and that people should not try to lose weight.

inator wrote:It's just a reaction to fat shaming, and fat shaming often concerns the aesthetic aspect rather than the health aspect.

HAES is about health. Pseudoscience around health is at the root of the movement, no different from Freelee's RT4 and HCLF nonsense. Metabolic damage, and all of that nonsense.

Wikipedia wrote:Fabrey helped Louderback research his subsequent book, Fat Power, and Louderback supported Fabrey in founding the National Association to Aid Fat Americans (NAAFA) in 1969, a nonprofit human rights organization. NAAFA would subsequently change its name by the mid-1980s to the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance.

It's right in the name "Fat Acceptance"; it seems to have stemmed from the propaganda arm of the HAES crowd.

Some of the pseudoscience itemized, from that page:

Wikipedia wrote:1. "Thin fat people" suffer physically and emotionally from having dieted to below their natural body weight.
2. Forced changes in weight are not only likely to be temporary, but also to cause physical and emotional damage.
3. Dieting seems to unleash destructive emotional forces.
4. Eating without dieting, allowed Louderback and his wife to relax, feel better while maintaining the same weight.

They're all about intuitive eating, saying you're naturally fat and you shouldn't be thin or it will cause metabolic damage which will make you fatter if you try to diet, etc. If you want pork rinds, that's what your body needs to heal.

Wikipedia wrote:As part of the wider fat acceptance movement,[8][9] HAES includes also a significant social and psychological dimension. Proponents view the common wisdom that obesity is unhealthy as part of a general stigmatization of the obese, and especially of obese women; thus, the movement has furthermore strong connections with feminism.

I think that makes it pretty clear. They see the health issues as underlying the stigma, and thus think they need to create pseudoscience to deceive people into believing it's healthy so the foundation of the discrimination (the rational justification) can no longer stand.

If you actually talk to people who mock the aesthetics of obesity, I think you'll find most of them will support this with claims that it's unhealthy (as opposed to a circular argument that it just looks gross to them), and that fat people lack willpower or are stupid, as justifications.

They must be stupid or lack will power, because if neither of these were true they could lose weight if they wanted. And they must want to lose weight, because only a crazy person would want to be so fat due to the severe health concerns.

These are all profound indictments of character.

inator wrote:Like: "Why is that fat person wearing shorts, that's so disgusting, it's hurting my eyes..." As if people are obligated to dress in a way that pleases other's aesthetic sense and, if they're fat, they shouldn't be allowed to wear the equivalent of what a skinny person might wear.

A little extra fat, into overweight, used to be considered attractive. Why has this fallen out of vogue?

I think aesthetics track crudely to follow perceptions of health. It's also the case with disease, or things that are "dirty". Evolutionarily, that is the purpose, and culturally there seem to be parallels as well.
While it's a superficial reason, that doesn't mean there aren't deeper justifications for those feelings. Most people seem to find those in health and wellness.

Much like how "cuteness" tends to be perceived with eyes and expressive character, playing, etc. It's not a perfect match to sentience, but it is a close enough approximation that we can understand what people are crudely interpreting.
When we see a pig or cow playing and folicking, it goes from not cute to cute, because we've witnessed behavior we can relate to and that reflects what we understand to be an emotional state similar to that which our pets and children have.
Some people aren't smart or insightful enough to say anything beyond "that's cute", but it serves as a crude intuitive approximation to stimulate empathy for reasons that can be tracked to behavioral expression of emotion and correlation with common features.

Anyway, my point is that aesthetic reactions can't always be written off as completely shallow.
On some meaningful level, it's ugly because it's unhealthy, and people don't want to see it for the same reason they don't want to see open festering oozing sores everywhere.

Only by changing the perceptions of ill health associated with obesity can these aesthetic positions be fully undermined, and that's a dangerous gambit that means allying with pseudoscience.

inator wrote:I guess it's a double edged sword. Some don't care about their health anyway, so they wouldn't take any steps to lose the weight were it not for the aesthetic aspect.

The only people who don't care at all about health are those who have never experienced it and are too depressed to care about life.
It feels terrible to be obese, and nobody who values life wants to leave it early due to their poor choices.
Some of them are also delusional and think they ARE healthy, or have been deceived by the HAES pseudoscience.

inator wrote:But this is also partly why some people get a liposuction or go for crazy fad diets instead of changing their habits. It's not to become healthy, it's to look better. Because that's the main aspect that's being shamed.

That's likely more because they've given up and think they can't lose weight by any other means, or they're too lazy to do what needs to be done and don't have enough willpower.
These promises of quick fixes are a problem.

inator wrote:Of course losing weight can and should be done, but many of those who have never faced a comparable problem, or haven't had a loved one go through it, have a very hard time understanding how hard it can be and what amount of will is necessary to do it.

I think the bigger issue, as I've mentioned before, is that they're often shamed when trying to lose weight, like by running or going to the gym, or buying and eating healthier foods. It draws attention to them. AND worse yet, they're often shamed by their fat peers and family and made fun of for trying to lose weight.
This kind of thing makes a quick fix more appealing.

inator wrote:Will is a limited resource,

That may be true in some sense, but you can also build up your will power: it can be exercised like anything, and a substantial influence limiting it is actually your expectation. Placebos can be pretty powerful at regenerating willpower. In some sense, it may be limited by our beliefs that it's limited.

inator wrote:Having some sympathy for others is not just a kindness, it's also a tool of analysis - it gives us a way of figuring out why other people are how they are. If we want to help them, it's important to try to understand what difficulties they have and what's the best way to deal with them, to get them motivated.

Sure, that can certainly be helpful. The more we know, the better.

inator wrote:Some level of shame may be a temporary motivating factor for some, but generally positive incentives work much better.

Likely true as well, or at least stick AND carrot. I think the most important thing is to remove the shame and obstacles to losing weight.

"Haha look at that fat person run/eat a salad! He thinks he can be skinny!" That kind of stuff needs to stop.
It's important not to shame the more reasonable fat shamers, though, who want to ensure that obesity remains at least somewhat shameful and socially unacceptable, but are happy to encourage those who are working to lose weight and open to the use of positive incentives too. Removing the negative isn't likely to help the situation.

I think inator will address this, so I just want to respond to one point here:

brimstoneSalad wrote:They must be stupid or lack will power, because if neither of these were true they could lose weight if they wanted. And they must want to lose weight, because only a crazy person would want to be so fat due to the severe health concerns.

These are all profound indictment of character.

People who are overweight must be stupid or lack will power?

There are plenty of overweight and successful people. The former CIA director, George Tenet, is pretty overweight. Do you think the former CIA director is stupid or lazy?

This is a false dichotomy. Some people may just not really care for whatever reason.

Even Donald Trump seems kind of overweight, and - oh wait.

EquALLity wrote: People who are overweight must be stupid or lack will power?

That's the reasoning, and it's statistically probable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ARVUy43lOQ

EquALLity wrote: This is a false dichotomy. Some people may just not really care for whatever reason.

Yes, but that's very rare, very unlikely, and founded on ignorance.

Look at Penn Jillette. He didn't care until his doctor told him if he lost weight he could get off the medication. He lost weight right away, easily, by following the nutritarian diet and switching to beans and veggies because he has will power and he's intelligent enough (and skeptical enough) to figure out what to do in order to lose weight.

Once he lost weight, he commented about how much better he felt being thinner.

Obesity is like a vice tightening around you, it tightens slowly enough as you gain weight that you just get used to being uncomfortable all of the time.
The decision to be fat is (at least when it's not some bizarre sexual fetish, which probably needs therapy) a choice made in ignorance of what it feels like to be healthier.

Fat people are in the very least ignorant or gullible, and probably always a little arrogant when they ignore others telling them how much better they'd feel if they lost weight. The latter may have been Penn's vice; it took an objective benefit in getting off medication to convince him. He was being a stubborn idiot all of those years he chose to be fat; he would probably admit to that now that he has perspective.

There's nuance to it, but most people don't have the confidence of the rich and famous, and most fat people legitimately wish they were skinny. It's a very safe assumption 99% of the time, and it's well reasoned based on an incredibly improbable alternative that somebody wants to be fat or really doesn't care at all.

brimstoneSalad wrote:That's the reasoning, and it's statistically probable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ARVUy43lOQ

I'm not sure what that video has to do with statistics, but since you posted it, I don't really agree with either of them. I definitely side more with the overweight woman, because it's not ok that she doesn't get a job because of her weight. On the other hand, since she knows that her weight prevents her from getting a job, it would be a good idea to try to lose weight. Obviously there's a difference between an overweight and disabled person, because being overweight is often due to choice.

The other woman, Katie Hopkins, is really difficult to listen to. I did a little bit of research on her, and I found a video clip in which she basically says that to help refugees from drowning that we should stop their boats from coming. You know, out of compassion for the refugees.

Check out this video and try to make the case that she isn't the most obnoxious person on the planet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQNj_vwWwFM

She describes Syrian refugees, people who are literally fleeing for their lives, as cockroaches. She said she'd use gunships to stop refugee boats! WTF?

I'm not trying to say that what she said in that video is wrong because she's a horrible person for other reasons, but what you're doing is kind of like using a reasonable video by Freelee the Banana Girl to advocate for veganism.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Yes, but that's very rare, very unlikely, and founded on ignorance.

Look at Penn Jillette. He didn't care until his doctor told him if he lost weight he could get off the medication. He lost weight right away, easily, by following the nutritarian diet and switching to beans and veggies because he has will power and he's intelligent enough (and skeptical enough) to figure out what to do in order to lose weight.

Once he lost weight, he commented about how much better he felt being thinner.

Obesity is like a vice tightening around you, it tightens slowly enough as you gain weight that you just get used to being uncomfortable all of the time.
The decision to be fat is (at least when it's not some bizarre sexual fetish, which probably needs therapy) a choice made in ignorance of what it feels like to be healthier.

Fat people are in the very least ignorant or gullible, and probably always a little arrogant when they ignore others telling them how much better they'd feel if they lost weight. The latter may have been Penn's vice; it took an objective benefit in getting off medication to convince him. He was being a stubborn idiot all of those years he chose to be fat; he would probably admit to that now that he has perspective.

There's nuance to it, but most people don't have the confidence of the rich and famous, and most fat people legitimately wish they were skinny. It's a very safe assumption 99% of the time, and it's well reasoned based on an incredibly improbable alternative that somebody wants to be fat or really doesn't care at all.

I don't think you can say it's very rare without evidence (and that's not what you were even saying before, you were flat out saying that all overweight people have to be stupid or lazy). All you seem to really be doing is speculation.
I don't see evidence to support that idea that the overwhelming majority of overweight people are stupid or lazy.

Also, this is her twitter cover photo. I'm guessing these are quotes by her?

"Thank me chubsters"? Seriously? What a bitch. Seriously.
And her latest tweet:

female trump wrote:I am the only straight-talker never to apologise. The only voice happy to listen to the haters. And the only woman man enough to be PM

Oh, how brave of you, not apologizing for attacking all the marginalized groups of the world.

This might actually be Freelee the Banana Girl in the future.

EquALLity wrote:On the other hand, since she knows that her weight prevents her from getting a job, it would be a good idea to try to lose weight.

And if she's not delusional or incredibly stupid, she knows her weight is unhealthy too. She probably thinks she knows better than the doctors, and believes the HAES propaganda. She has every reason to lose the weight, and only her own laziness and lack of drive to blame for keeping it. She could easily prove herself driven by just losing the weight if she had will power and some sense.

It's reasonable for Katie Hopkins to not want to hire her when there's a thin applicant.
The thin person may just be thin by dumb luck rather than effort, but a woman like this is fat for reasons that demonstrate weak character. It's not a disability, it's not a race: it's a choice and it reflects character. It's worse than having a nazi swastika tattooed on your face (at least that might be out of date, from a youthful mistake).

EquALLity wrote: I'm not trying to say that what she said in that video is wrong because she's a horrible person for other reasons, but what you're doing is kind of like using a reasonable video by Freelee the Banana Girl to advocate for veganism.

It was a good interview. If you look to agree with everything somebody says in order to reference something they've done, you'll find yourself pretty short on sources.

I don't know that much about Freelee's content. If she actually made a good video where there weren't a lot of alternatives (like from somebody nicer like Bite Size Vegan) it would be sensible to reference it.

If you have a better source which demonstrates what that interview does, I'd be glad to link that instead.

Here's something that shows the delusion people have: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to7BMBJR9P4

She's eating almost 20 times more than she should be eating. Her carbon footprint is probably the size of ten people's. It's deeply unethical, and she's killing herself, but she has peddled this lie of being healthy and it being her personal choice and brainwashed her family with the HAES garbage.

EquALLity wrote:I don't think you can say it's very rare without evidence (and that's not what you were even saying before, you were flat out saying that all overweight people have to be stupid or lazy).

I was talking about the reasoning people use.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/166082/americans-desire-shed-pounds-outweighs-effort.aspx

While 51% of adults want to lose weight, barely half as many (25%) say they are seriously working toward that goal.

And those who are working toward it, you will typically find, are doing a poor job of it. Remember, this is self reporting.
More recent statistics are more dire: while Americans have gotten fatter, fewer are reporting that they think they are overweight.

You can also see the consequences of fat acceptance in those statistics, where people are starting to care less or cave to delusions that they are not overweight. People want to be told they're OK no matter what, and that they're healthy, and that eating bacon is good and they should do whatever they want.

http://www.livescience.com/46246-most-americans-dont-think-theyre-overweight.html
This fat acceptance shit is sowing the seeds of mass delusion, and it's not helping people lose weight or be healthier.

"This discrepancy may suggest that addressing the obesity crisis in America must first start by convincing overweight Americans that they are indeed overweight."

Not surprisingly, women seem to be less delusional about their weight than men are when it comes to being overweight. Why? Probably because men are subject to less shame and criticism for being overweight.
Shame is important, take it away and all of the effort falls away with it and delusion can take over.

EquALLity wrote:I don't see evidence to support that idea that the overwhelming majority of overweight people are stupid or lazy.

They're also delusional. It's probably fair to say that is a form of stupid. Some of them are just in denial about being overweight: a large part of that apparently because they're comparing themselves to others around them that are equally or more fat. Stupidity. People KNOW obesity is an epidemic in America.

The vast majority of Americans are incredibly stupid. Have you not seen the surveys on basic scientific and nutrition knowledge?

http://www.pcrm.org/health/reports/survey-americans-lack-basic-nutrition-info
https://consumerist.com/2010/07/07/only-12-of-americans-know-how-many-calories-they-should-eat-each-day/

There's more depressing stuff like that on basic scientific knowledge.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/3742/new-poll-gauges-americans-general-knowledge-levels.aspx