Philosophical Vegan Forum

Military claims takeover. A curfew has been announced. President Erdogan is calling people to streets. I'm alone at home and really scared.

Wow, that's terrifying. I'm looking into it now. Please be safe!
If you can, please let us know how you are every now and then so we don't worry.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Wow, that's terrifying. I'm looking into it now. Please be safe!
If you can, please let us know how you are every now and then so we don't worry.

Thank you for your support. I'll stay with neighbors if this gets more serious. Nothing's happened to any politician yet, people are gathering on the streets, but fighter jets are still flying. I'll keep you updated.

Edit: Right now it looks like the attempt has failed. The oppressive right wing party running the government right now will be much more stronger tomorrow. They'll probably be able to bring the presidential system. I'll wake up to a different Turkey tomorrow.

Oh my god.

If I understand correctly, the Turkish military just tried to seize the government from Erdogan?
Jesus Christ...

What's it like there now? Are you ok?

How are you holding up? Is everything good?

EquALLity wrote:Oh my god.

If I understand correctly, the Turkish military just tried to seize the government from Erdogan?
Jesus Christ...

What's it like there now? Are you ok?

I'm okay, thank you. Yes, that's what seemed to happen. It's not convincing, though. Looks more like a show.

RedAppleGP wrote:How are you holding up? Is everything good?

I'm okay, thank you.

What do you think about the coup as a person very opposed to Erdogan?

My initial instinct was to be opposed to the coup. I don't support Erdogan, but he should be removed through the legal processes. The coup is instinctively undemocratic and uncivilized.

However, then I remembered a story I heard awhile ago about Erdogan's alleged election fraud. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjA8o1vQt-U

Some people may say it sounds like a crazy conspiracy to suggest that Erdogan's administration would do something like that, but keep in mind how different Turkey is from the United States. Turkey is rated as a more corrupt country than Saudi Arabia: http://www.transparency.org/cpi2015#results-table

The Turkish government is very shady. It still denies the Armenian Genocide, and it imprisons journalists and has essentially destroyed the free press (another thing they did was have police attack anti-Erdogan newspaper offices with tear gas and water canons until they supported Erdogan). Erdogan doesn't just go after the media when it is critical towards him, he's actually going after a comedian who has joked about him.
And when people in Turkey try to protest, he apparently has had the police force fill hoses with pepper spray to attack the protesters.

To suggest that a government like that would commit election fraud almost seems obvious, and when you take into account various instances that have happened during elections, it's highly suspicious.
Some things that have happened in regards to Turkey's elections:
1) Erdogan was displeased with the results of an election in which his party lost a lot of seats, so he called for a re-election. His party was, unfortunately for him, polling at the same place as it was during the first election. However, his party ended up winning a majority, stunning pollsters.
2) Right after that election, the website that was supposed to report the election results was down, and the site continued to be down for awhile, but the results were announced anyway.
3) In a different election, when Erdogan's party (AKP) was in power, nine different cities had blackouts, and when votes were later counted in those regions, AKP had gained a lot more support. The Turkish government said the blackout happened because a cat walked into an electrical generator.

So, overall, I lean towards supporting the coup, because I don't think we could've removed Erdogan through the legal processes. I'm very disappointed that it didn't work out, and it's horrifying to think that all the people who tried to return Turkey's government towards a democratic system are likely going to be executed.
And unfortunately, like you said, this coup gives Erdogan an excuse to consolidate more power for himself.

What do you think?

EquALLity wrote:What do you think about the coup as a person very opposed to Erdogan?

I'm not a supporter of any kind of coup. It's undemocratic and very traumatic. It happened in the past and it only empowered those who are like Erdoğan. However, I actually wish that it was successful because there is no happy ending to this story now. A dictatorship seems possible now that Erdoğan gained so much power for surviving the coup. My instincts are telling me that it was a sham for bringing the presidential system.

EquALLity wrote:1) Erdogan was displeased with the results of an election in which his party lost a lot of seats, so he called for a re-election. His party was, unfortunately for him, polling at the same place as it was during the first election. However, his party ended up winning a majority, stunning pollsters.
2) Right after that election, the website that was supposed to report the election results was down, and the site continued to be down for awhile, but the results were announced anyway.

Are you talking about the last elections? Yes, the website was down, the results were announced too early (when nothing was certain), some news media that are closer to the opposition were showing different results, there were rumors that polling clerks supporting AKP were skewing the results. We even watched videos of some getting caught the next day. It is very well possible that it happened.

There were other reasons more people voted for him on the second round, though. MHP (which is a nationalist conservative party) rejected coalition, offending people who voted for them. Of course their votes go to AKP if the are not going to MHP. Also, after the first round Erdoğan demanded 400 seats to stop terrorism. Right in between the two rounds, terrorists bombed Suruç, killing 34 and injuring 103. AKP's number of seats increased from 258 to 317.

EquALLity wrote:The Turkish government is very shady. It still denies the Armenian Genocide, and it imprisons journalists and has essentially destroyed the free press (another thing they did was have police attack anti-Erdogan newspaper offices with tear gas and water canons until they supported Erdogan). Erdogan doesn't just go after the media when it is critical towards him, he's actually going after a comedian who has joked about him.
And when people in Turkey try to protest, he apparently has had the police force fill hoses with pepper spray to attack the protesters.

The government is trying to shut down any opposition. It is violating freedom of speech by imprisoning journalists and even regular people for "insulting the president" on social media, ordering the police to attack protesters with tear gas and water canons. All the mainstream media is airing Erdoğan propaganda now. A portion of Turkish citizens follow the news only via mainstream media, hearing only one side of the story.

There are a lot of other shady things they do like stealing our money and removing the opposition from judicial institutions, police forces and military to fill them in with their supporters.

To sum up, future is dark.

TabbyCat wrote:I'm not a supporter of any kind of coup. It's undemocratic and very traumatic. It happened in the past and it only empowered those who are like Erdoğan. However, I actually wish that it was successful because there is no happy ending to this story now. A dictatorship seems possible now that Erdoğan gained so much power for surviving the coup.

Well, a coup can be pro-democracy if it's taking out an undemocratic leader and restoring democratic elections. From my understanding, that is the history of intentions of coups in Turkey, but I don't know much about that. What other leaders have successful coups led to?
I definitely understand why a coup would be traumatizing, though. I could never imagine something like that happening in the United States. I'd be horrified.

So, to clarify, you wish the coup never happened because you don't agree with coups, but given that it did happen, you'd rather have it succeed than for Erdogan to remain in power?

TabbyCat wrote:My instincts are telling me that it was a sham for bringing the presidential system.

What do you mean?

TabbyCat wrote:Are you talking about the last elections? Yes, the website was down, the results were announced too early (when nothing was certain), some news media that are closer to the opposition were showing different results, there were rumors that polling clerks supporting AKP were skewing the results. We even watched videos of some getting caught the next day. It is very well possible that it happened.

Yeah, it sounds really shady. It's really hard to imagine that there wasn't election fraud given all these details, which would make Erdogan NOT a democratically elected leader. It's really either a successful coup or he stays in power, because he wouldn't let himself get voted out.

TabbyCat wrote:There were other reasons more people voted for him on the second round, though. MHP (which is a nationalist conservative party) rejected coalition, offending people who voted for them. Of course their votes go to AKP if the are not going to MHP. Also, after the first round Erdoğan demanded 400 seats to stop terrorism. Right in between the two rounds, terrorists bombed Suruç, killing 34 and injuring 103. AKP's number of seats increased from 258 to 317.

Ah, thanks for the info. There's still a lot of issues with the election, of course.

TabbyCat wrote:The government is trying to shut down any opposition. It is violating freedom of speech by imprisoning journalists and even regular people for "insulting the president" on social media, ordering the police to attack protesters with tear gas and water canons. All the mainstream media is airing Erdoğan propaganda now. A portion of Turkish citizens follow the news only via mainstream media, hearing only one side of the story.

There are a lot of other shady things they do like stealing our money and removing the opposition from judicial institutions, police forces and military to fill them in with their supporters.

To sum up, future is dark.

Wow, that's really concerning. Yeah, I saw on the news that over a hundred judges have been removed following the coup.

Are you more concerned that Erdogan is a Muslim fundamentalist, or that he's becoming the next Putin?