Philosophical Vegan Forum

I don't know if this has already been brought up, but this has been bothering me and possible others for a time now.

I was having a family discussion, where as to my mom thinks when I go to collage I will become a Liberal. I naturally responded that I am neither Conservative or Liberal. Thus is where the argument started.

She claimed to be that we are not "Talking about parties", as I am an Independent on the ideas of parties. Both to be tend to have good and bad judgments on economic, politics, and worldly issues. Neither one to me to be be an 'Automatic' subscription too as life is not like Youtube where you subscribe and you get videos from said person. I have never agreed with the party system in the USA, as both sides tend to change their view set as time moves on. From learning US history, it seems to me both the Elephant and Donkey, somewhere along the lines, swapped stand points. Democrats used to be mostly a Agriculture set point, and Republicans the opposite, is it just me or has to switched out?

In my own personal opinion I find Independent to be the best stand point you can get so you can choice your person and not be hindered to your vote always going for said candidate of mainstream party.

That being said, the argument was one of, "Are you Liberal or Conservative." as if me saying I an independence I still have to say I am one or the others. Typically, Conservatives are Republican, and Liberals are Democrats, that can not be said for everyone but majority are. And in this world, when you say you are a Republican people tend to automatically think you are a Conservative, and nine times out of ten they are right. As most, but not all, Conservatives has the same views of that which a Republican has. The same can be said vise versa.

So my main anger was that my family was trying to categorize me into something that almost has the same view points as parties would. I, of course, said I do not find myself neither one as I agree traditions are a part of the family life, but I do not think they are to be put into politics. I do agree we should not put all people into one circle and say they are all bad, but I do not wish to have said people in my comfort zone when I do not know if they are of the extreme ideas or not; as one can not truly know when one is lying or telling the truth. So my view point, is still of the neutral aspect of it all.

However, as you can guess, my family did not take that so well. Claiming still that we are "Not talking about parties" but rather my "Beliefs". Since when did Conservative and Liberal becoming the only 'beliefs' one can have? As I have said before, most can be this but not all, not all Christians you find are conservative, albeit many can be, but not all one-hundred percent. So why do I have to say I am one or the other, when I find both about the same as a party subscription is? Why can't I be neither with a party or a mainstream 'Belief'?

Granted one can say they are a liberal, but not be a Democrat. My family tends to think this also, but yet so still thinking I have to say I am Liberal or Conservative as I can not be neutral. When in my mind they can both be the same as they have the same ideas, but sometimes they can not be. So I can be neutral on this bases that nine times out of ten by saying you are a conservative, most will say you are a Republican. Thus by me saying I am Neither, I can be an independent nine times out of ten. Dose that make sense? It's very complicated to put into words.

My question to this forum is: was what I said constant enough to back up how I feel about both; and is what I think to be solid enough for a bases in my life when it comes to politics? Or to put more simply, by saying I am neither my idea above is good enough to be saying I am neither?

Thank you for taking the time to read this out. I hope to have some answers and/or constructive criticism if need.

As I understand it:
Parties are political groups that tend to attract people with certain ideas. The democratic party has liberal values, so it tends to attract liberals. The republican party has conservative values, so it tends to attract conservatives.
However, because of various issues with the parties, some liberals and conservatives don't want to align with a party.

Some reasons:
1) They think the parties aren't liberal/conservative enough (like the democrats are too corporatist)
2) They think aligning with a party promotes dogma and groupthink.
3) They don't support the two-party system.
etc.

JadeSpeedster17 wrote:She claimed to be that we are not "Talking about parties", as I am an Independent on the ideas of parties. Both to be tend to have good and bad judgments on economic, politics, and worldly issues. Neither one to me to be be an 'Automatic' subscription too as life is not like Youtube where you subscribe and you get videos from said person. I have never agreed with the party system in the USA, as both sides tend to change their view set as time moves on. From learning US history, it seems to me both the Elephant and Donkey, somewhere along the lines, swapped stand points. Democrats used to be mostly a Agriculture set point, and Republicans the opposite, is it just me or has to switched out?

1) Well, each party has some correct values. But it isn't split down the middle.
If you compare the party plaforms, you'll see that the democratic party is generally supporting policies that help the planet and workers. Republicans are basically advocating for theocracy (the platform literally says officials should use religion to determine laws).

2) I don't agree with the current party system also, because I don't like the suppression of unique ideas from third parties.
Yeah, the parties did essentially switch. The republican party used to be the liberal party, and the democratic party used to be conservative.

JadeSpeedster17 wrote:In my own personal opinion I find Independent to be the best stand point you can get so you can choice your person and not be hindered to your vote always going for said candidate of mainstream party.

I think that's true, because I think being apart of a party can create a dogma. However, when I can vote, I am going to register as a democrat, because unfortunately independents aren't allowed to vote in the Presidential primaries in my state (not all states are like that).

I mostly agree with the democrats, and if I had to choose between a democrat and republican without knowing either of their positions, I would choose the democrat. Not because it's a dogma for me, but because I'm more likely to support the policies of the democrat.

JadeSpeedster17 wrote:So my main anger was that my family was trying to categorize me into something that almost has the same view points as parties would. I, of course, said I do not find myself neither one as I agree traditions are a part of the family life, but I do not think they are to be put into politics. I do agree we should not put all people into one circle and say they are all bad, but I do not wish to have said people in my comfort zone when I do not know if they are of the extreme ideas or not; as one can not truly know when one is lying or telling the truth. So my view point, is still of the neutral aspect of it all.

Well, I have no respect for tradition at all. All tradition means is that something has been happening for a long time, and it tends to be used as a way to justify bad things when it's intertwined with politics (I know you don't support tradition in politics, though).

Can you explain the part I put in bold? I'm not sure what you mean.

JadeSpeedster17 wrote:My question to this forum is: was what I said constant enough to back up how I feel about both; and is what I think to be solid enough for a bases in my life when it comes to politics? Or to put more simply, by saying I am neither my idea above is good enough to be saying I am neither?

Thank you for taking the time to read this out. I hope to have some answers and/or constructive criticism if need.

Are you saying that:

1) You don't want to identify as liberal or conservative, even if your beliefs may lean one way, because you don't want to be associated with either of the corresponding parties.

and/or

2) You actually are basically in-between liberal and conservative, so it just doesn't make sense for you to identify with either.

Or some combination?

Btw, I think you should probably avoid these conversations with your parents. Religious fundamentalists aren't open-minded and don't engage in real discussions. It'll probably just be upsetting.

Thank you for the replay. It really did help make sense of my confusion.

To answer your questions, the bold is that.
I see that tradition is something of the family, but not of politics. In a sense it shoudl be kept with family, and even so said family member can chose to continue a tradition within the terms of the US law. EX: We put and angel on our tree every year. but not "We kill a virgin every year". If you get what I mean. I should not be law that everyone puts and angel on their tree, but rather a families tradition to do so.
and
By the other I mean, I don't want to feel like i'm in danger when I don't know what a person thinks. But I don't think that just on that bases I have the right to put everyone in the same category as one group of extremist.

And the last one.

I don't identify as because of stereotyping done. But conservatives tend to have more republican ideas. It's been shown, even is some do not go with said party, and there are still some liberals whose ideas I don't agree with. I don't tend to lean more one then the other until one side shows more promotion of what I favor. I don't say to someone, "I'm a liberal" all the time, as there may be days I can be a conservative in an argument.
That is why I don't identify. Conservative and Liberal, as even though you say they are Ideas, they are still much like the party system. You are subscribing to a set of ideas that you may not all agree with. If that makes sense.

JadeSpeedster17 wrote:Thank you for the replay. It really did help make sense of my confusion.

No problem.

JadeSpeedster17 wrote:To answer your questions, the bold is that.
I see that tradition is something of the family, but not of politics. In a sense it shoudl be kept with family, and even so said family member can chose to continue a tradition within the terms of the US law. EX: We put and angel on our tree every year. but not "We kill a virgin every year". If you get what I mean. I should not be law that everyone puts and angel on their tree, but rather a families tradition to do so.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. I don't really value traditions within families either, but I guess it's harmless enough.

JadeSpeedster17 wrote:By the other I mean, I don't want to feel like i'm in danger when I don't know what a person thinks. But I don't think that just on that bases I have the right to put everyone in the same category as one group of extremist.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Can you give me a political position related to this? Are you talking about things like allowing in Syrian refugees?

JadeSpeedster17 wrote:I don't identify as because of stereotyping done. But conservatives tend to have more republican ideas. It's been shown, even is some do not go with said party, and there are still some liberals whose ideas I don't agree with. I don't tend to lean more one then the other until one side shows more promotion of what I favor. I don't say to someone, "I'm a liberal" all the time, as there may be days I can be a conservative in an argument.
That is why I don't identify. Conservative and Liberal, as even though you say they are Ideas, they are still much like the party system. You are subscribing to a set of ideas that you may not all agree with. If that makes sense.

So it's both of those reasons- you don't want to identify with a party inadvertently by identifying as liberal or conservative, and you don't actually lean more liberal or conservative overall?

I think that not leaning more liberal or conservative is a good reason to not identify one way or the other. Why would you?

But if you do lean one way or the other, I think it is good.
I'm liberal. I don't agree with all values typically agreed to be liberal, but I accept the label liberal because I agree with the core of what I believe liberalism is (progressivism, reformation, open-mindedness, civility, humanity, etc.), and because I tend to agree with conventionally liberal (ha) values.

Just because you don't ALWAYS agree with something doesn't mean you should reject the label of it. Labels always oversimplify and make generalizations, but I think that has its benefits (as long as we keep in mind not every liberal/conservative agrees with x/y). I might not always agree with liberals, but the label groups me with people who share my core values of progressivism, reformation, open-mindedness, civility, humanity, etc. and draws the distinction with conservatives, who value tradition and generally religion. I think that's an important distinction to make.

Well that makes much more sense then then answers I have gotten from other people outside of family. Thank you very much for your help!

And yes refugees woudl be an issue I am relating too. Just my other stand point on them is that we have not even helped our own country and we are in no state to bring in refugees at this time.

I guess I'm just a bit paranoid, I like people who are nice no matter who/what they are, religious or otherwise, but even so you can never be too sure of anyone so best to keep on your toes until you know more about said person.