Philosophical Vegan Forum

https://www.google.com/amp/gizmodo.com/bernie-just-printed-a-gigantic-trump-tweet-and-brought-1790767297/amp?client=safari

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2016/12/29/1615387/-Sanders-will-lead-Democratic-drive-to-organize-rallies-in-every-state-against-Medicare-Medicaid-cuts

Donald Trump made some campaign promises that were actually good, such as not cutting Social Security and Medicare. However, it's unlikely he's actually going to be inclined to follow through with these promises, because he's a lying douchebag.
Thankfully, Bernie Sanders is making sure everyone knows that Donald Trump promised not to cut these programs. He is protesting on the Senate floor with a quote by Donald Trump about not cutting the programs, and he is even organizing rallies to support them.
Finally, someone is politics is being held accountable. It's so refreshing.

These are very popular programs, and Trump cutting them when he said he wouldn't would be very bad publicity with Bernie Sanders out there holding rallies about it.
Bernie is just a lovely person. I mean, he actually CARES. Hillary Clinton ran for President, and what have we heard from her since? Nothing. Because for Bernie Sanders, it wasn't just about him becoming President. It was about changing America.

Questions:
What do you think about what Bernie Sanders is doing?
How else can we hold Donald Trump accountable for his good campaign promises?
Do you think Trump will try to cut Social Security and Medicare?

EquALLity wrote:He is protesting on the Senate floor with a quote by Donald Trump about not cutting the programs

He's a Senator.

EquALLity wrote:Hillary Clinton ran for President, and what have we heard from her since? Nothing. Because for Bernie Sanders, it wasn't just about him becoming President. It was about changing America.

She's not a senator is she? Isn't she struggling with a case of pneumonia right now?
I'm not sure what you expect her to do, being this disrespectful to her and suggesting she only cared about being president and not making a difference.

EquALLity wrote:What do you think about what Bernie Sanders is doing?

I don't know if it's doing anything other than furthering his own PR for future political ambitions. If Trump tries to cut those programs he'll be crucified, and the media will make sure the country remembers his promises. Sanders' efforts are fine, but probably irrelevant.

EquALLity wrote:How else can we hold Donald Trump accountable for his good campaign promises?

We can't do much, other than helping the democrats take the legislative branch from him in two years, and making sure he doesn't get reelected in four.

EquALLity wrote:Do you think Trump will try to cut Social Security and Medicare?

No.

brimstoneSalad wrote:He's a Senator.

Ok??? I don't see any other Senators doing what he is doing.

brimstoneSalad wrote:She's not a senator is she? Isn't she struggling with a case of pneumonia right now?
I'm not sure what you expect her to do, being this disrespectful to her and suggesting she only cared about being president and not making a difference.

She was diagnosed with pneumonia in September, so probably not. And she ran for President with it, so...

If she really cares, then she should raise public awareness like Bernie Sanders. She's not a Senator; you don't have to be a Senator. You don't need to be a Senator to do rallies like the ones Bernie will be doing.

brimstoneSalad wrote:I don't know if it's doing anything other than furthering his own PR for future political ambitions. If Trump tries to cut those programs he'll be crucified, and the media will make sure the country remembers his promises. Sanders' efforts are fine, but probably irrelevant.

Will they? I don't see any reason to believe the mainstream media will do that. The media has been very easy on Trump thus far.

brimstoneSalad wrote:We can't do much, other than helping the democrats take the legislative branch from him in two years, and making sure he doesn't get reelected in four.

There is a such thing as political activism.
And I didn't just mean people, I meant what you think politicians can do as well.

brimstoneSalad wrote:No.

Why?

EquALLity wrote: Ok??? I don't see any other Senators doing what he is doing.

Maybe because he's hogging the floor. He's kind of a ham. Not all senators are that flamboyant, and that's neither a good nor bad thing necessarily.
It makes him very vocal and very visible, but that doesn't mean he's getting much done where it counts.

EquALLity wrote: She was diagnosed with pneumonia in September, so probably not. And she ran for President with it, so...

She still can't walk out on the Senate floor any time she wants and start lecturing/ranting.
Sanders has a right to be there, and he has a captive audience.

EquALLity wrote: If she really cares, then she should raise public awareness like Bernie Sanders. She's not a Senator; you don't have to be a Senator. You don't need to be a Senator to do rallies like the ones Bernie will be doing.

If she really cares about the world, she'll focus on real problems in the developing world like she did as secretary of state.
Flamboyant politics does not equal making real important changes in the world.

For all of the effort Sanders spends on America, a thousandth of that could make much more difference in other countries.

Clinton is a humanitarian, not a nationalist like Sander and Trump. I don't think she cares so much about the future of Social Security as she does about food security in Africa, or education for oppressed women in the Middle East. That's just a guess, though.

It's cool and all to hold Trump accountable, but when it comes to American politics -- outside issues on climate change and ending agricultural subsidies -- it's pretty much just first world problems.

EquALLity wrote: Will they? I don't see any reason to believe the mainstream media will do that. The media has been very easy on Trump thus far.

They will. This is a transition period, Trump hasn't even done anything yet.

EquALLity wrote: There is a such thing as political activism.

Which is not effective altruism. At least not on these issues.

EquALLity wrote: And I didn't just mean people, I meant what you think politicians can do as well.

Well, they can just not pass those bills. And they won't. It's political suicide to threaten those programs. Any Republicans who try will be filibustered.

EquALLity wrote: Why?

1. He can't. A bill to do so will never arrive on his desk to sign.
2. He won't, it's political suicide. If he did, that would be something to celebrate in a way, because it would be the end of the Republican party, and something better might come along (maybe Libertarians would pick up the slack as fiscal conservatives without being so socially conservative).

brimstoneSalad wrote:It's cool and all to hold Trump accountable, but when it comes to American politics -- outside issues on climate change and ending agricultural subsidies -- it's pretty much just first world problems.

I think you make a particularly important point here. These issues - to which I would add nuclear warfare risk and disease control - are so important they eclipse most other policies. The upside is that we have fewer considerations in the voting booth, the downside is that most people are thoroughly confused on these points.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Maybe because he's hogging the floor.

I don't think he's there 24/7 and nobody else is able to talk.

brimstoneSalad wrote:He's kind of a ham.

?

brimstoneSalad wrote:Not all senators are that flamboyant, and that's neither a good nor bad thing necessarily.
It makes him very vocal and very visible, but that doesn't mean he's getting much done where it counts.

You don't need to be flamboyant to show that you care.

brimstoneSalad wrote: She still can't walk out on the Senate floor any time she wants and start lecturing/ranting.
Sanders has a right to be there, and he has a captive audience.

Irrelevant. She could do a lot of things. She could hold a rally or a press conference, but she won't do anything.

brimstoneSalad wrote:If she really cares about the world, she'll focus on real problems in the developing world like she did as secretary of state.
Flamboyant politics does not equal making real important changes in the world.

For all of the effort Sanders spends on America, a thousandth of that could make much more difference in other countries.

Clinton is a humanitarian, not a nationalist like Sander and Trump. I don't think she cares so much about the future of Social Security as she does about food security in Africa, or education for oppressed women in the Middle East. That's just a guess, though.

It's cool and all to hold Trump accountable, but when it comes to American politics -- outside issues on climate change and ending agricultural subsidies -- it's pretty much just first world problems.

That's kind of overlooking a lot of important issues. 45,000 people dying every year because they don't have health insurance in America isn't a "first world problem", and cutting Social Security and Medicare will increase that number.

You don't have to limit yourself to one issue. Just because you want to help people in America doesn't mean you don't care about people abroad. And it's completely irrelevant because she isn't raising awareness about that either. If she cares so much, why isn't she doing anything?

What do you think that she even did that was so good as Secretary of State?

brimstoneSalad wrote:They will. This is a transition period, Trump hasn't even done anything yet.

They weren't during the campaign as he rose in the polls from being a lying idiot, and he has pledged to nominate people to departments who would be horrible. Betsy Devos, who doesn't believe in public education, has already accepted the nomination to the Department of Education (by the way, she has no political experience - she's just a huge donor, which isn't surprising).

brimstoneSalad wrote:Which is not effective altruism. At least not on these issues.

I disagree.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Well, they can just not pass those bills. And they won't. It's political suicide to threaten those programs. Any Republicans who try will be filibustered.

No single politician has the power to stop a bill from being passed; you only have one vote. Why aren't other democrats doing what Bernie Sanders is doing and drawing attention to this and other issues?

They won't? I don't think that's so obvious. In fact, I think they will probably try to. They only get away with it because people don't know what they're doing. That's why what Bernie is doing is so important - he's bringing it to the spotlight.

brimstoneSalad wrote:1. He can't. A bill to do so will never arrive on his desk to sign.

That goes against everything republicans support and have tried to do under President Obama and since basically forever.

brimstoneSalad wrote:2. He won't, it's political suicide. If he did, that would be something to celebrate in a way, because it would be the end of the Republican party, and something better might come along (maybe Libertarians would pick up the slack as fiscal conservatives without being so socially conservative).

He's done a lot of things that are political suicide; his campaign was a total mess. He only won on an electoral loophole in which you can be the President even if you don't get the popular vote.

Libertarians are just as radical on Social Security and Medicare.

EquALLity wrote: You don't need to be flamboyant to show that you care.

You do to get media coverage. You don't know what other people are doing. You only know what the press has chosen to cover.

EquALLity wrote: That's kind of overlooking a lot of important issues. 45,000 people dying every year because they don't have health insurance in America isn't a "first world problem", and cutting Social Security and Medicare will increase that number.

That's not correct. The issue is more complicated than that.
I'm going to have to let somebody else (maybe miniboes) address this, since I don't have time now. But a good tip to get started is comparing the costs of insuring somebody for a year (or providing that heath care), vs saving a life by other more effective means. You're dealing with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars per life saved in the U.S. through paying for medical interventions like that.

EquALLity wrote: You don't have to limit yourself to one issue. Just because you want to help people in America doesn't mean you don't care about people abroad.

Opportunity cost.

EquALLity wrote: And it's completely irrelevant because she isn't raising awareness about that either. If she cares so much, why isn't she doing anything?

She has a foundation, look into what it does.

EquALLity wrote: Libertarians are just as radical on Social Security and Medicare.

They're probably worse, Republicans tend to want to preserve Social security. You need to look into the lobbies that support these things. The senior voter base is both conservative and very reliable, but you lose support the moment you start talking about not honoring the promise of social security etc. for them.