Philosophical Vegan Forum

I've been a fairly hard-line skeptic and rationalist ever since I deconverted from Christianity about three year ago. While the shift from theist to atheist was a bit rocky at first, I found a lot of solace in both the encouragement of my atheistic friends as well as the online skeptic community. As I opened my eyes to the world of atheism and became well versed in both atheistic and theistic argumentation, I became more and more aware of the fact that rationalists are fighting an uphill battle against the litany of cognitive biases and fallacious mental shortcuts which people are willing to fall back on to justify their ludicrous beliefs. At the time, I was only thinking about this in terms of atheism and theism, but earlier this year, I began to evaluate my justifications for carnism and speciesism with the same level of skepticism which I try to apply to all other belief systems.

It didn't take much honest investigation for me to realize that speciesism and carnism both completely collapse under the smallest level of scrutiny, much like religion, and I after a bit of research I eliminated meat from my diet and other animal products shortly after. However, while the dietary change has been easy for me, I've had an extremely rough time dealing with my sudden awareness of animal rights issues. Nearly everywhere I look, I see reminders of the enslavement of my fellow animals and of my powerlessness to do anything to put an end to it. Every day on my way to classes I walk by a Chick-fil-a construction site which proudly displays a picture of a cow wearing a sign reading "Eat mor chikin." Every time I order a vegan meal, I see dozens of other people gladly handing money over to the animal exploitation industries for meals consisting of meat and dairy. It seems I can scarcely watch a video on youtube without some reverent mention of bakon, the almighty idol of the omnivores. All around me, I see a dogmatic worship of animal products, and I feel as though it has been wearing down on me in way that religion never has.

I see two basic differences between theism and carnism which ultimately make carnism the more troubling of the two for me. First, despite the prevalence of theism in American culture, I have hope for the future because non-religiosity is running rampant in my college-aged generation and seems to be growing every day. Second, while theism itself a massive hindrance to human progress and is the cause of countless atrocities worldwide, unlike carnism, the individual theists which I know are not, for the most part, directly contributing to much of the worldwide harm caused by their belief system.

Unlike my transition into atheism, I have been unable to find much solace in friends or online communities to ease my shift into my new animal-concious mindset. I know only one other vegan, and when I've tried to talk to my other friends/family about the subject, they usually concede to all of my points, but shrug-off the veganism as a whole with a simple "I just don't really care that much," or "I like meat too much." I find it hard to enjoy getting food with my friends and family any more because I can't help but feel a bit disgusted as they choose to satisfy their appetites with the roasted carcasses of our fellow animals. I've also been horrified to see what other so-called skeptics have to say about veganism. Aside from the Vegan Atheist's youtube channel which has been a huge help for me, I have found that the vast majority of atheists give veganism very little weight, and several go so far as to ridicule it. Naïvely, I thought that these rationalists, who champion the superiority of their secular morality over the barbaric morality of the bible, would be the first to recognize the immorality of animal enslavement, but instead they seem to believe that now that they have rejected religion there is nothing in their lives left to question. They seem to exist in a state of self-righteous complacency, content in their choices as billions of animals are tortured and killed to satisfy their bloody cravings.

This has become somewhat of a rant, but I think you get the picture. I guess my point is, I am having a lot of trouble wrapping my mind around the cruelty of my species and would like to know from other vegans if they also feel this way and what, if anything, they do to assuage the frustration of it all.

I was about to post on this. I'm currently at a family reunion. Everyone keeps trying to make me go fishing because I used to do it as a hobby. I keep hearing "you don't need to eat them, you can throw them back".
Anyway I spent an uncomfortable ten minutes being scoffed at by my dad and brother for not wanting a cookie. I didn't even bring it up, I said "no thank you" and my brother was like "well what it was from humane eggs" of course I responded and now I'm on the defensive. I just don't want a fucking cookie, a slice of pizza, and yes I like my vegan food. GTFO.

Great post, thanks for putting it into words. It's exactly how I feel about it as well (and probably most of the other vegan members here as well, but I can't speak for them).

I also have grown into disliking carnism more than theism, mostly because it's all around you, all of the time, all over the world. But those two groups of course goes perfectly hand in hand in the group irrational people, and in my opinion irrationality is the real problem we are dealing with. And that's indeed what is so frustrating about those so-called rational Youtubers, that are in fact far from being rational. But also real rational persons that in fact recognize that there is no rational justification to be given, are still continuing with their practices out of comfort and convenience. It's sometimes hard to live in such a world...

I felt the exact same way as you do - and that's in part why I'm a misanthropist.
I still feel the same way, but with less intensity. After a while, I stopped caring about what I saw around that much. Me being depressed and frustrated was not going to help anything, so I accepted reality as it was: most people are unaware of what the meat & dairy industry does, and the consequences of it; and if they are, and they realise that animals are sentient, they're then in a permanent state of cognitive dissonance.
But there's a way to fight this; not being demoralized or frustrated, which is ultimately pointless, but with activism and making people aware of the issues - be it on the internet or in real life.

Great rant

thebestofenergy wrote:Me being depressed and frustrated was not going to help anything, so I accepted reality as it was [...] But there's a way to fight this; not being demoralized or frustrated, which is ultimately pointless, but with activism and making people aware of the issues - be it on the internet or in real life.

This was well said.

You either get desensitized, or you have to learn to channel those feelings into something productive.

It's good that you at least get indifference instead of denial from your family -- A state of cognitive dissonance, and just trying not to think about it, but at least they recognize it.

It's not a pleasant feeling for them to have, all the time. That's their cross to bear, not yours -- once you've helped them understand, the rest is up to them; you can't really make them change their behavior, only dismiss their rationalizations.

Teach a hundred people, and you get lucky if a couple of them will change not only their minds, but their behavior too.
But that's the way of things. It's certainly not easy.

What you can try is some culinary activism. learn to cook really really well, and bombard them with vegan food. And each time you do, you can subtly remind them how healthy it is, and that no animals were killed- positive messages about what they're eating right now (the food you made), rather than negative ones about what they often eat, which will be better received (and won't make them uncomfortable until later when they eat meat again).

It takes time. And it takes a real devotion to critical thinking which some people haven't developed an appreciation for.