Philosophical Vegan Forum

Hey there! I have a quick question for all Theists who believe in the concept of Heaven and Hell. You may have heard of this argument before, but since I have nothing productive to fill my time with for the time being, I'm doing this instead.

Now take my dainty hand as I whisk you away into a scenario involving the concept of the afterlife, specifically Heaven and Hell.

(Let's say that Heaven and Hell do exist, and Christianity is correct, but our characters are ignorant about the future)
Bobby Joe and his brother/BFF Rickey Joe are both super duper ultra mega religious Christians who pray before meals, go to Church every Sunday, pray to God to help others, and believe in Heaven and Hell. Pretty much the best Christians that any average Joe can possibly be. Now let's say that Rickey somehow became an Atheist! After Rickey told Bobby that he changed his views on religion, Bobby flipped out, and they started this whole argument that went on for about an hour. After that incident, they almost never spoke with each other for a whole month. After that, they set their differences aside, and become friends, besides that Rickey and Bobby both have different views on religion.
Now fast forward to when both Rickey and Bobby are on their death beds, and they conveniently both die at the same exact time.
You know how I said that Christianity was correct before? Well Bobby Joe is going to Heaven for choosing the correct religion! He gets to enjoy the good life, eternal bliss, etc. But what about Rickey? He was an Atheist right? Now he is in eternal damnation for the rest of eternity! Now Bobby, up in Heaven notices this. While he's up in Heaven enjoying the good life, he has his brother in the pits of hell burning, and being tortured out of his mind. Do you think that Bobby will be content in Heaven, whilst knowing that he has someone that he knows and loves, burning? I don't think that he can. Well, at least no rationally. But that's just me. Well what do you think Theists? I'm not sure that I would be happy up in Heaven when my brother is burning. I am asking for your full opinion on this subject, and maybe I can fully understand these concepts in a way. Thanks!

I'm a theist. I study the Bible intensely. But, the Bible don't teach that the good go to heaven or that there is a hell. So, I may be completely useless to you in this thread. But I can adapt it to what the Bible really teaches, without getting all theological, or I could even look at it from the incorrect heaven / hell perspective. I'd rather do the former. The Bible says that some of us will be resurrected to everlasting life on paradise Earth and some of us will not be resurrected to everlasting life. Ultimately. It's somewhat more complicated than that, but that is the basic sense of it. Oh, and, a very few of us will go directly to Heaven to judge with Christ. 144, 000, to be specific.

To heaven - I wouldn't want to go. The Bible says that Heaven was created for the spirit creatures and Jehovah himself, not for us. I wouldn't want to go because I would miss the green grass, and the trees and all of the animals - the sounds, sights, smells etc. of the Earth that was created for me.

If my and my brother (who by the way is a firm atheist) were dying I would feel that he made his decision and he was going to end up where he would most likely be happy to be going, which is the grave, asleep, as it were, in death. If that were the case. However, there is the possibility that I were not given the opportunity to enjoy everlasting life in paradise Earth. Being a believer isn't a golden ticket, you know. As Jesus told the apostles, the sinners may enter into the Kingdom of God before you (the apostles) , and of the demons he said of them, they know (as opposed to believe) and yet shudder. In other words, we with faith have less certainty of God and his purpose, etc. than they do because they know first hand and yet they are doomed.

All you have to do to become a "christian" is to accept "jesus" into your heart and become baptised, even if you dismiss God you will be given the chance to reaccept him when you are on your death bed because; jesus is in your heart & his spirit never leaves you::bwahahaha::

So figuratively speaking, on his death bed he would be given the chance to either accept or reject him, that is what they want you to think anyways.


It is all BS

Christian's are sloppy

DLH wrote:I'm a theist. I study the Bible intensely.

I personally enjoy reading your posts, even as an atheist. however reading some of your posts (including on this topic) I have noticed you fail to reference most if not all of your information. I'm sure you know as well as I that I can find bible quotes that contradict your claims, and will bring them us towards the end of this post. show me the verses you where referring to in the post, and possibly how you used them to come to your conclusions?

contradictory quote.

DLH wrote:The Bible says that Heaven was created for the spirit creatures and Jehovah himself, not for us.

Mathew 5:19 wrote:Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practises and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

this quote seems to be suggesting that the "kingdom of heaven" was indeed created for "our" after life. i am very interested to hear how you came to this view on heaven. this quote also seems to be contradictory to one of your later claims, that christianity is not a golden ticket. this verse seems to be suggesting that even sinners "one who breaks the least of these commandments" will still go to heaven. it seems to be drawing a line between people who believe in this religion and those who don't, and then allowing the Christian side of that line go to heaven while not allowing those who do not believe in that particular religion.

Luke 12:5 wrote:But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

DLH wrote:The Bible don't teach that the good go to heaven or that there is a hell.

in Luke it is clearly teaching that hell does exist, and you should fear god because of it. this is contradictory to your claim.

DLH wrote:Oh, and, a very few of us will go directly to Heaven to judge with Christ. 144, 000, to be specific.

revelation 14:1 wrote:Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

this was the only mention of the number 144,000 i could find in the bible. If this is the verse you are referring to reading it in context does not give me the message that they will stand and judge at all. how did you come to this conclusion.

bobo0100 wrote:I personally enjoy reading your posts, even as an atheist. however reading some of your posts (including on this topic) I have noticed you fail to reference most if not all of your information. I'm sure you know as well as I that I can find bible quotes that contradict your claims, and will bring them us towards the end of this post. show me the verses you where referring to in the post, and possibly how you used them to come to your conclusions?

Thanks, Bobo, I have to make a call on whether or not to leave references on an atheist forum, especially when a new participant. A lot of the times I don't because it just bugs some, and others don't care. I used to include a signature at the end of every post saying "Scriptural references upon request." I can back it all up, but it can be very time consuming, so sometimes I leave it up to the reader to call me out. Which you have now done, and I appreciate your attentiveness.

bobo0100 wrote:

DLH wrote:The Bible says that Heaven was created for the spirit creatures and Jehovah himself, not for us.

Mathew 5:19 "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practises and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

this quote seems to be suggesting that the "kingdom of heaven" was indeed created for "our" after life. i am very interested to hear how you came to this view on heaven. this quote also seems to be contradictory to one of your later claims, that christianity is not a golden ticket. this verse seems to be suggesting that even sinners "one who breaks the least of these commandments" will still go to heaven. it seems to be drawing a line between people who believe in this religion and those who don't, and then allowing the Christian side of that line go to heaven while not allowing those who do not believe in that particular religion.

First let me point out a really simple method of testing an interpretation, your own or that of someone else. You apply the Mosaic law of two witnesses. In that law someone accused of an offense can't be punished unless there are at least two witnesses who agree the alleged is guilty. (Deuteronomy 17:6; 19:15 / John 8:17 / 1 Timothy 5:19) So in order to establish a correct interpretation you have to have at least two scriptural references. Of course, you also have to have no contradictory references.

So, my statement that heaven was made exclusively for spirit beings (Jehovah, angels etc.) is supported by Psalm 115:15, 16 / 1 Corinthians 15:50. Now one has to dig a little deeper, because the terms heaven and earth are used in quite a few different contexts, both literal and figurative, and both of them are also applied in different manners to different things, much like they are today, in fact. For example Earth can mean the planet or it can mean soil, dirt. Heaven can mean the sky, space - the physical heavens (Proverbs 30:19 / Matthew 6:26 / Isaiah 13:10 / Luke 17:24), and the spiritual heavens where the angels and God reside. (Jude 6 / Revelation 12:12) Notice I didn't give reference to the planet and soil being called Earth? The reason being I would have the additional burden of demonstrating the original language being used as I have suggested. Like this: Genesis 1:2a "Now the earth (Hebrew erets) was formless and desolate," Genesis 10:10 "The beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land (Hebrew erets) of Shinar." Matthew 13:5 "Others fell on rocky ground (Greek ge) where there was not much soil (Greek ge), and they immediately sprang up because the soil (Greek ge) was not deep." 1 Corinthians 15:47 "The first man is from the earth (Greek ge) and made of dust; the second man is from heaven." There are also other Hebrew words used for both purposes.

The verse you gave (Matthew 5:19) doesn't specify Christians as being the least or the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven, it specifies people who either practice or break the commandments they teach. At this point Jesus is talking to the Jews. It isn't a question of believing in a religion its a question of those who teach "Do as I say not as I do" vs. those who lead by example.

This is complicated further by the Bible's reference to the Kingdom of Heaven as being, not only the spiritual and physical heavens, but Earth as a part of that kingdom. (Isaiah 9:7 / Daniel 7:14 / Luke 1:33 / 2 Peter 1:11/ Revelation 11:15)

bobo0100 wrote:Luke 12:5 "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

DLH wrote:The Bible don't teach that the good go to heaven or that there is a hell.

in Luke it is clearly teaching that hell does exist, and you should fear god because of it. this is contradictory to your claim.

The word hell is, in this case, translated from the Greek word Gehenna. It was a literal place that in the time of Jesus was well known as a refuse pit where the dead bodies of criminals who were thought not to be worthy of resurrection were thrown and burned. (See my post here on Hell: Not A Bible Teaching)

bobo0100 wrote:

DLH wrote:Oh, and, a very few of us will go directly to Heaven to judge with Christ. 144, 000, to be specific.

Revelation 14:1 "Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads."

this was the only mention of the number 144,000 i could find in the bible. If this is the verse you are referring to reading it in context does not give me the message that they will stand and judge at all. how did you come to this conclusion.

The other scripture is Revelation 7:4, and to come to this conclusion would require an in-depth study rather than a few verses which directly connect the two. 1 Corinthians 6:3 and Revelation 20:4 compared to a contextual examination of the 144,000 mentioned would be a good start.

DLH wrote:I'm a theist. I study the Bible intensely. But, the Bible don't teach that the good go to heaven or that there is a hell. So, I may be completely useless to you in this thread. But I can adapt it to what the Bible really teaches, without getting all theological, or I could even look at it from the incorrect heaven / hell perspective. I'd rather do the former. The Bible says that some of us will be resurrected to everlasting life on paradise Earth and some of us will not be resurrected to everlasting life. Ultimately. It's somewhat more complicated than that, but that is the basic sense of it. Oh, and, a very few of us will go directly to Heaven to judge with Christ. 144, 000, to be specific.

To heaven - I wouldn't want to go. The Bible says that Heaven was created for the spirit creatures and Jehovah himself, not for us. I wouldn't want to go because I would miss the green grass, and the trees and all of the animals - the sounds, sights, smells etc. of the Earth that was created for me.

If my and my brother (who by the way is a firm atheist) were dying I would feel that he made his decision and he was going to end up where he would most likely be happy to be going, which is the grave, asleep, as it were, in death. If that were the case. However, there is the possibility that I were not given the opportunity to enjoy everlasting life in paradise Earth. Being a believer isn't a golden ticket, you know. As Jesus told the apostles, the sinners may enter into the Kingdom of God before you (the apostles) , and of the demons he said of them, they know (as opposed to believe) and yet shudder. In other words, we with faith have less certainty of God and his purpose, etc. than they do because they know first hand and yet they are doomed.

Irrelevant, but informative!

RedAppleGP wrote: Irrelevant, but informative!

Do you think it is irrelevant in a general sense, as to an atheist, or irrelevant to the OP?