Philosophical Vegan Forum

I can speak for the ELF.

It does not advocate inflicting physical harm and does not promote an economic system.

Grant_Barnes wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:23 pm I can speak for the ELF.

Really? Autonomous groupings of cells loosely inspired by each others actions and politics of propaganda by the deed, graffiting ELF or sending out communiques under the name?

Grant_Barnes wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:23 pmIt does not advocate inflicting physical harm and does not promote an economic system.

If a tree falls, the story of the Earth Liberation Front wrote: Narrator: Some members of the group were questioning the actions, but there were others who felt they hadn't gone far enough.
Prosecutor: Some of them had decided they wanted to target captains of industry, target people now, not just property.
ELF Member: The last circle meeting basically cleaved between people who seemingly wanted to talk about it, not even plan it, but just talk about it, and the people that were repulsed by it.

Wiki wrote:In 1987, California mill worker George Alexander was seriously injured when the bandsaw he was operating was shattered by either an old nail or a tree spike.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_spiking

Spike a tree for jesus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grqkoQvFIDo

Wiki wrote:The explosion injured three members of the police, three passing motorists and five Litton employees,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litton_Industries_bombing

Italian anarchists kneecap nuclear executive and threaten more shootings:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/11/italian-anarchists-kneecap-nuclear-executive

In terms of economic system, some might have been primitivists who reject systematized trade entirely, but there's no getting away from the fact that they participated in rally's for revolutionary socialism as opposed to the current one, often taking credit for when reforms were pushed through as people waking up to the effect they can have on bringing it about.

A forum member implied the ELF advocates inflicting physical harm or supports a particular economic system. It does neither.

Grant_Barnes wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:32 am A forum member implied the ELF advocates inflicting physical harm or supports a particular economic system. It does neither.

Provide a counter argument then, at the very least ELF members were radicalized in a direct action movement they were apart of that practiced and promoted tree spiking, which acted as potentially lethal mines to go off in loggers faces and did in one case. They planted incendiary bombs in properties in which they couldn't be sure they were totally vacated. And some number of ELF members planned to target people directly, if they had the means to do it and get away, without fear of others repulsed by the idea ratting on them after they brought it up, they might likely have gone ahead with it.

And again we're talking about autonomous groups, often completely disconnected from each other, inspired by each others actions, reading manuals downloaded from the internet, deciding to go out and take whatever action they see fit. Who his holding the party line in an insurrection? Are underground ELF or ex-ELF members in America going to vie for legitimacy with a European ELF group if an assassination happens and denounce them? Like the Afghan Taliban do when the Pakistani Taliban went too far in pulling off a mass shooting at a military school? I've been to environmental gatherings where the crusty tree-sitting group are the ones tabling pamphlets for cells of fire on the latest kneecapping action, it's a bloody obvious connection, and one that we have to be concerned about delegitimizing worthy causes.

What exactly is your reason for holding that "they don't support an economic system"? They are on the libertarian far-left of the political spectrum, many were involved in street demonstrations for reforms of the economy towards that end before and take it up again afterward. I acknowledged that some of them might be primitivists, but whether through popular consciousness raising for revolution or reforms they intend to shift the political discourse towards the far left and for liberty, I can source interviews, events they attended, what's your counter argument?

Also after 3 seconds of googling for cross-over, I found a German cell acting under ELF banner as well as ALF and FAI. Italian FAI were the ones who did the knee-capping. You'd have to be blind, deaf and dumb to not see this as in line with the tradition of far-left urban guerillas since the 60s who were more concerned with spectacle than innocent victims in their haphazard bomb-plots, before they escalated to hostage taking and murdering.

http://earthfirstjournal.org/newswire/2016/02/26/germany-nine-cars-burnt-in-mulheim-by-wildfire-cell-alfelffai/

There is no position on economics held by all ELF activists.

ELF actions are not designed to cause physical harm.

if you support the elf you support terrorism

the elf,alf and animal rights militia are violent groups

anyone defending them is a terrorist supporter

Grant_Barnes wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:20 pm There is no position on economics held by all ELF activists.

ELF actions are not designed to cause physical harm.

What the hell was that Grant? Engage with the bloody arguments. Moving the goalposts and stating it as fact without argumentation is not allowed:

The Forum Rules wrote:1. This is a discussion forum. Please come here willing to discuss. This isn't a place to lecture, and then refuse to address others' rational arguments or even answer others' questions. Discussion is founded upon logic, if you don't accept basic logic as valid, there's really nothing for you to do here except lecture, and this isn't the place for it. Again: This is a discussion forum.

- http://philosophicalvegan.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2115

Grant_Barnes wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:20 pmThere is no position on economics held by all ELF activists.

The original claim was: that it "does not promote an economic system."

It clearly does through it's actions and communiques, the whole reason the attack is justified to them in the first place. The crystal clear goal of economic sabotage to change industry practices. I keep stating their end goal might be an anarchic utopian nonsystem that we can no longer call economics, but it is still a position on the political spectrum that they wish to move everyone closer towards through propagandizing by the deed. They like economic systems closer to that goal and claim credit when it's achieved, they are promoting to others a move in economic systems to the left.

Grant_Barnes wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:20 pmELF actions are not designed to cause physical harm.

Original claim: It does not advocate inflicting physical harm

Yes they do, both directly in their actions and through propagandizing in their communiques.

Tree spiking is a time bomb intended to inflict physical harm if loggers try to cut the tree down. I just read a part of the book Eco-defense which ELF members used and in it's third edition it tried to strike what they think is a better tone, in which they advocate a second option of spiking higher up the tree (as well as the first), so risk is minimized to the factory where trees are processed, they still acknowledge that could cause physical harm to operators. They advocate setting a plan in motion that directly puts people in harms way, they advocate inflicting physical harm.

Original ELF members planned to target people as fair targets, they advocated it to confidants, and they advocate it to others when the truth came out and they became imprisoned martyrs to the cause.

And cells in Europe see common cause between the ELF and FAI enough to perform actions under both banners, so we have people considering themselves ELF members advocating kneecapping and parcel-bombing for a start.

The Politics of Attack: Communiqués and Insurrectionary Violence by Michael Loadenthal:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=z2MwDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT78&lpg=PT78&dq=fai+kneecapping&source=bl&ots=3gkDh8SuIB&sig=ljWjwe7BVPor5Z1_VpAKQGliMHA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjq3dD_jbvYAhXHF-wKHcJXAFwQ6AEINzAC#v=onepage&q=fai%20kneecapping&f=false

Address the bloody arguments or get your coat, I'll ask for consensus to ban you if you don't address the arguments again in the next post. This is a waste of my time. No idea how you think you're protecting the reputation of ELF by not providing a lick of counter argument to their favor.

bigbossomni wrote:if you support the elf you support terrorism

the elf,alf and animal rights militia are violent groups

anyone defending them is a terrorist supporter

Use the edit function. I deleted your other posts, you can edit your first one again:



And try to remember this is a discussion forum, don't just state what you believe as facts without evidence, appeal to people with reasoned argument.

haha discussion no this is censorship

cunt

bigbossomni, please try to condense your thoughts into single posts.
Ideally look at the arguments in the thread and add to them with examples.

bigbossomni wrote: ↑Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:16 pm if you support the elf you support terrorism

the elf,alf and animal rights militia are violent groups

anyone defending them is a terrorist supporter

I'm not sure to what extent they are violent. I think NonZeroSum has made a good argument that they are, or at least reckless and that some are violent.
The fact that they have failed to sever ties with and denounce violent cells says a lot.

ABLC had a good video on this about BLM not having an explicit statement of non-violence, I think that applies here to.

They're definitely engaging in various forms of terrorism, I don't think that's acceptable at all.