Philosophical Vegan Forum

I'm sure most of you have already seen this but in case you haven't: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5tc48iaki0#t=180

I got the below stats after getting into a debate with my nephew who believes Azlan is correct in his claims about FGM.

Have a look at the ten countries with highest rates of FGM and their religious demographics (sources mainly Wikipedia and the FGM map tweeted by Reza Azlan himself):

1. Guinea (97% FGM) 85% Muslim, 10% Christian
2. Somalia (96% FGM) 99.8% Muslim
3. Djibouti (93% FGM) (95% Muslim, 1% Christian
4. Egypt (91% FGM) 90% Muslim, 10% Christian
5. Sierra Leone (90% FGM) 71% Muslim, 27% Christian
6. Malaysia (90% FGM) 61% Muslim, 20% Buddhist, 9% Christianity
7. Mali (89% FGM) 90% Muslim, 5% Christian
8. Sudan (88% FGM) 97% Muslim, 1.5% Christian
9. Eritrea (83% FGM) Roughly half Muslim, half Christian (according to Wikipedia- subject to debate)
10. Indonesia (exact stats hard to get as FGM has been illegal since 2006- estimates range from 80-90%) 87% Islam, 10% Christianity.

I really think Azlan shot himself in the foot by bringing up the FGM issue. First of all, he called Eritrea a Christian country which is debatable. At least one source claims that there are more Muslims than Christians in Eritrea. The question Azlan should answer is: If this indeed is a Central African problem, than why is the prevalence of FGM so much lower in the countries in the region where Islam is not the dominant religion, like Kenya and Uganda. Also, with the exception of Nigeria (half Muslim/half Christian) the regions where the most cruel form of FGM (infbulation) is practiced (Mali, Sudan, Somalia, Southern Egypt) are almost exclusively Muslim.

I find Aslan's claims credible.

Both the US. department of state and Pew report Eritrea as predominately Christian (with Pew reporting almost twice as many Christians as Muslims). I don't see that assumption as problematic.

Do all Muslims practive FGM? No.
Do only Muslims practice FGM? No.
Is FGM required in Islam? No.

It could just as well be an issue of correlation with poor education and healthcare, associated with poverty in those parts of the world. Christians are clearly doing it too, and possibly even some Buddhists.

Correlation is not causation, that was the mistake Maher made.

Bear in mind, also, it was Bill Maher who made the claim that FGM was an 'Islamic problem'; Reza Aslan argued against Maher's assertion. Who really had the burden of proof there?

Lower numbers among some Christian populations may have more to do with Western influence suppressing the practice, but that's not always the case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

FGM is also practised by animist groups, particularly in Guinea and Mali, and by Christians.[130] In Niger, for example, 55 percent of Christian women and girls have experienced FGM, compared with two percent of their Muslim counterparts.[131] There is no mention of FGM in the Bible, and Christian missionaries in Africa were among the first to object to it.[132] The only Jewish group known to have practised it are the Beta Israel of Ethiopia; Judaism requires male circumcision, but does not allow FGM.[133]

brimstoneSalad wrote:I
It could just as well be an issue of correlation with poor education and healthcare, associated with poverty in those parts of the world.

No, these variables are clearly controlled for. Several poor countries in the region report very low FGM. The only independent variable with causation is religion.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Bear in mind, also, it was Bill Maher who made the claim that FGM was an 'Islamic problem'; Reza Aslan argued against Maher's assertion. Who really had the burden of proof there

?

Both of them should back up their claims

brimstoneSalad wrote:Lower numbers among some Christian populations may have more to do with Western influence suppressing the practice, but that's not always the case:

I guess this is possible. Have you seen any links or stats?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

brimstoneSalad wrote:FGM is also practised by animist groups, particularly in Guinea and Mali, and by Christians.[130] In Niger, for example, 55 percent of Christian women and girls have experienced FGM, compared with two percent of their Muslim counterparts.[131] There is no mention of FGM in the Bible, and Christian missionaries in Africa were among the first to object to it.[132] The only Jewish group known to have practised it are the Beta Israel of Ethiopia; Judaism requires male circumcision, but does not allow FGM

.[133]

[/quote]

FGM is clearly a Christian problem in Africa as well, although not nearly as big of a problem as in the Islamic world. Looking at the numbers, I estimate that at least 95% of all FGM is carried out by Muslims. The big Muslim populations of Egypt and Indonesia with 80-95% FGM have a much bigger data impact than the smaller Christian nations that perform a lower number of FGM.

Brimstone will you at least agree with me that infibulation as mainly an Islamic problem?

Jebus wrote: No, these variables are clearly controlled for. Several poor countries in the region report very low FGM. The only independent variable with causation is religion.

I'm not sure that there are enough countries in the region to do that in a statistically significant way or control for variables.

I would want to see things broken down into tribes or other smaller socioeconomic groups within similar regions.

It does appear to be true that many Muslims in Africa believe that FGM is a religious requirement, but at what level of ignorance can one say that the Islam they're following is not legitimate when they believe so many false things with respect to their religious authority?
FGM has never been a requirement, and is condemned by many religious leaders.

There are a series of issues here that all need to be independently controlled for and evaluated.

Jebus wrote: Both of them should back up their claims

What I saw was Reza disagreeing with Maher's claim. Has he made this assertion independently, or only attacked the claim that it's an Islamic problem (which is, the implication that it's just an Islamic problem-- it's that implication I think he has a real problem with)?

Jebus wrote: I guess this is possible. Have you seen any links or stats?

Just that missionaries have been discouraging it, although that's a cultural thing. In those regions where Christianity is stronger, cultural links with the West are stronger too; particularly through France.

Jebus wrote: FGM is clearly a Christian problem in Africa as well

Well, if it's a Christian problem in Africa, and an Islamic problem in Africa, and even a Buddhist problem in Africa, at which point does it become predominately an African problem?

You're not necessarily wrong that it's a serious Islamic problem in certain regions, because those regions contain a lot of Muslims, but it's also a problem in other religions, and a problem of regions and cultures.
I think what Aslan is rejecting is the characterization of FGM as being just an Islamic thing.

Jebus wrote: Brimstone will you at least agree with me that infibulation as mainly an Islamic problem?

In that most FGM is carried out by Muslims and it affects mainly Muslims, sure, but it's also mainly an African problem, isn't it?
I don't think Aslan is wrong in this, but it's also in how you look at it.

What I see him as rejecting is the implication that this is a problem for all Muslims in general, or that it's not also a problem for other religions.

I doubt it's even a problem for most Muslims, but I don't know the statistics on that.

brimstoneSalad wrote: Well, if it's a Christian problem in Africa, and an Islamic problem in Africa, and even a Buddhist problem in Africa, at which point does it become predominately an African problem?

I would have agreed that it's ok to characterize FGM as an African problem if it hadn't been for the huge numbers of FGM in Malaysia and Indonesia, the fact that it is somewhat prevalent throughout a vast majority of the Muslim world, and that it barely exists in countries that don't border any Islamic countries.

Jebus wrote:and that it barely exists in countries that don't border any Islamic countries.

It does seem as though the custom was originally spread to many areas of Islamic conquerors; it just seems like, beyond that, it has also taken on a life of its own, and was probably only indirectly related to Islam (caused by obsession over sexual purity, for example, which Islam shares with many religions).

Not sure where all of the traditions come from, some may have been independently created.

Better people have unintentionally created worse (e.g. nuclear weaponry).

I don't know if FGM represents an actual majority of Muslims; if it did, that would be an interesting point.
You'd have to add up all of the Muslim populations and their respective rates of FGM.

Which primarily Muslim countries, or countries with large Muslim populations, do not practice it?

brimstoneSalad wrote: I don't know if FGM represents an actual majority of Muslims;

I think there is a good chance it does considering the huge populations of Indonesia and Egypt where the FGM rate is around 90%

brimstoneSalad wrote:Which primarily Muslim countries, or countries with large Muslim populations, do not practice it?

A quick read through this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence ... by_country and it seems to exist somewhat in all Muslim countries

Jebus wrote:I think there is a good chance it does considering the huge populations of Indonesia and Egypt where the FGM rate is around 90%

Indonesia is very troubling, yes.

So is it mainly a Muslim problem, or more mainly an African problem? It is clearly both a problem for Muslims and Africans (as well as Christians, etc. in Africa), but I don't know how the percentages come down on that.

The trouble is when we say something is an X problem, we imply certain things without qualification, like exclusivity. Mainly helps, but that also implies the largest correlation, which it may or may not be.

I guess it would depend if FGM represents a larger percentage of Muslims than of Africans.

If the statistics fall on the side of a stronger correlation with Islam, though, then it's a very strong argument.

The reference I earlier posted here is quite an interesting one. It's not an African problem—FGM is performed elsewhere as well. The important part of the article:

Heather Hastie wrote:FGM is present throughout central, southern, and south-east Asia including Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Malaysia and the Philippines, but only in Muslim communities. Using Malaysia as an example, although at least 80% of Muslim women are victims of FGM, the practice is not carried out in any Christian, Hindu or Buddhist communities. In the Maldives, Imams renewed their calls for FGM to continue just this year. FGM is also widespread throughout the Middle East. It is much more difficult to obtain accurate figures of its prevalence in these countries but there is no doubt it exists in large numbers. In all these countries it was introduced as part of Islam.

Reza Aslan’s characterization of female genital mutilation as an “African problem” is simply wrong. Except for in Africa, FGM is solely a Muslim issue. Within Christianity, the Bible has been used to justify much that is evil over centuries – FGM is not one of them. Therefore, those seeking to get the practice banned can concentrate on education to get the message through. Education is not enough in Islam though because Muslims carry it out as an expression of faith.

In Sunni Islam, there are four schools of jurisprudence that express an opinion on the matter. Two of them, the Hanbali and Shafi’i schools, consider FGM obligatory, while the other two, the Hanafi and Maliki schools, recommend it. In addition, there have been several fatwas issued regarding FGM over the years, the majority of which favour it. (Fatwas are not compulsory, but devout Muslims consider them morally imperative.) For example, Fatwa 60314 includes statements that express the importance of FGM within Islam and dismiss the opinions of doctors.

The belief that FGM is an expression of faith if you are a good Muslim is widespread, insidious and promoted by religious leaders. Even in those Muslim countries where it has been banned, there is push-back by religious leaders.

Source: http://www.heatherhastie.com/reza-aslan ... am-on-fgm/

Maybe it hasn't any relation to Islam's holy books, but the ideas are spread within the religion and maintained for religious reasons. Covering your face with a burqa is also not ascribed, but nobody is going to argue that it has no religious motives. But there probably is a cultural part to it (in Africa) as well, but to completely separate FGM from Islam is certainly false.

Volenta wrote:nobody is going to argue that it has no religious motives.

My nephew was arguing that it cannot be an Islamic issue as it is not mentioned in the Quran and I'm sure Azlan would bring this up as well if he were here. FGM is not mentioned in the Quran yet many Muslims describe the practice as "a religious necessity." I would like to know the origin for this. In any case I'm sure the general disrespect for women and general lack of compassion, which are common traits in Islamic communities, have much to do with the proliferation of FGM in the Islamic world.