Philosophical Vegan Forum

The reason why God instituted laws in the first place (10 commandment or the 613 commandments) in the Bible during the Old Testament is because the world was filled with violence: God had to step in and put to an end to this. If you understood the historical context during the old testament then you would understand that God does not tolerate babies being sacrifice for their God Moloch and thrown in Gehenna (pit graveyard). God did not institute violence, men did. God did not started this, men did. Men chose to rebel God and sin entered the world and violence ensue starting when Cain stoned Abel. Did God Stoned Abel? No, man did - Cain. What did God do? He drove Cain out of his sight. There are many detestable thing God did in response to violence men elicited; it was only a natural response God did by intervening the affairs of men during the Old Testament. You need to understand this, there was no righteous men during the Old Testament, maybe a few (Moses, David, and Enoch) and all of the chosen people God decided to make an example of did follow what God commanded them. Even so, most of the Old Testament prophets did NOT AGREE WITH GOD'S METHODS! But they understood one thing: God had to do this because of sin (world filled with violence) and he had to put an end to it. Again, let me reiterated my point: God did not instituted violence; it was a choice men made.

Sodom and Gomorrah: men were committing numerous of act of violence including act of sodomy. No one intervened and God couldn't ignore what was going on. Of course, he could have chose to ignore the situation and let it fester unchecked. No, he didn't. Why would he intervene? Because of his love. If one of your children decided to rob a convenience store brandishing a gun and eventually no one was able to confront the your child. Who would be responsible to intervene this matter? POLICE! A poor comparison if you ask me, but I am trying to get my point across. Police either have a choice to ignore this matter or proceed to subdue the enemy depending on the situation which could affect police judgment. Likewise, God is doing exactly the same thing. You need to understand that during the bronze age, no one has the ability to make rational judgement and/or institution of civil court for criminal proceedings unlike today. Bronze age and the world we are living today are completely different by comparison. God knew this, and again, his direct intervention is the only answer. Secondly, most of the Old Testament was dealing directly with Israel (Hebrews, Jews) and its surrounding neighbors.

omegaflare wrote:The reason why God instituted laws in the first place (10 commandment or the 613 commandments) in the Bible during the Old Testament is because the world was filled with violence: God had to step in and put to an end to this. If you understood the historical context during the old testament then you would understand that God does not tolerate babies being sacrifice for their God Moloch and thrown in Gehenna (pit graveyard). God did not institute violence, men did. God did not started this, men did.

The god of the bible is quite violent himself, for example when he kills all of Egypt's firstborn children as part of the 10 plagues. An omnipotent god would by definition be able to find a peaceful solution to the problem. Also, when creating the first humans God would have known they were going to be violent as he is supposedly omniscient, and would also have had the power to change that. Free will is not an answer here, as God clearly doesn't give a shit about that. Here's an example from the bible where he negates free will, he does this multiple times: "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses." (Exodus 9:12).

God had to do this because of sin (world filled with violence) and he had to put an end to it. Again, let me reiterated my point: God did not instituted violence; it was a choice men made.

But your god, when creating man, would know this choice would be made and would be able to prevent it. Also, sin is a law made up by the god, of which he in advance would know to be broken. To make men suffer for breaking the laws, while you created them in a way they would, is downright cruel. Once again, even if he let all that happen, an omnipotent being would be able to find a peaceful solution.

Why would he intervene? Because of his love. If one of your children decided to rob a convenience store brandishing a gun and eventually no one was able to confront the your child. Who would be responsible to intervene this matter? POLICE! A poor comparison if you ask me, but I am trying to get my point across.

If you knew your child was going to rob a store in advance and had the ability to do so, you have an obligation to stop it from happening. It is indeed a poor comparison, as parents are not generally omniscient and omnipotent, like your god would be.

God knew this, and again, his direct intervention is the only answer.

Impossible. An omnipotent being can do anything, therefore he would be able to solve it without violence.

To summarize; your god supposedly made mankind, knowing it would sin whilst having the power to change that, then punishes them for breaking these laws with horrific deeds whilst being capable of solving the problem in a peaceful manner. That is not what a loving or righteous being would do.

miniboes wrote:

omegaflare wrote:The reason why God instituted laws in the first place (10 commandment or the 613 commandments) in the Bible during the Old Testament is because the world was filled with violence: God had to step in and put to an end to this. If you understood the historical context during the old testament then you would understand that God does not tolerate babies being sacrifice for their God Moloch and thrown in Gehenna (pit graveyard). God did not institute violence, men did. God did not started this, men did.

The god of the bible is quite violent himself, for example when he kills all of Egypt's firstborn children as part of the 10 plagues. An omnipotent god would by definition be able to find a peaceful solution to the problem. Also, when creating the first humans God would have known they were going to be violent as he is supposedly omniscient, and would also have had the power to change that. Free will is not an answer here, as God clearly doesn't give a shit about that. Here's an example from the bible where he negates free will, he does this multiple times: "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses." (Exodus 9:12).

God had to do this because of sin (world filled with violence) and he had to put an end to it. Again, let me reiterated my point: God did not instituted violence; it was a choice men made.

But your god, when creating man, would know this choice would be made and would be able to prevent it. Also, sin is a law made up by the god, of which he in advance would know to be broken. To make men suffer for breaking the laws, while you created them in a way they would, is downright cruel. Once again, even if he let all that happen, an omnipotent being would be able to find a peaceful solution.

Why would he intervene? Because of his love. If one of your children decided to rob a convenience store brandishing a gun and eventually no one was able to confront the your child. Who would be responsible to intervene this matter? POLICE! A poor comparison if you ask me, but I am trying to get my point across.

If you knew your child was going to rob a store in advance and had the ability to do so, you have an obligation to stop it from happening. It is indeed a poor comparison, as parents are not generally omniscient and omnipotent, like your god would be.

God knew this, and again, his direct intervention is the only answer.

Impossible. An omnipotent being can do anything, therefore he would be able to solve it without violence.

To summarize; your god supposedly made mankind, knowing it would sin whilst having the power to change that, then punishes them for breaking these laws with horrific deeds whilst being capable of solving the problem in a peaceful manner. That is not what a loving or righteous being would do.

The level of violence during the Old Testament is astoundingly high. Unlike Justice system we have here in the United States, people in the Old Testament are VIOLENT! There's no criminal justice system; there was no one to intervene but war. Man decided the rebel against God because they thought they could be a "GOD" in their own heart akin to what the Pharaoh did in Egypt during the time of Moses. God did admit that he made a mistake creating men in his image. However, God decided to administer Justice by providing a set of laws: the 10 commandment. It was directed to Israel only, not the rest of the world. Regardless, Israel during that time was extremely violent and no one was able to perfectly fulfill God's law. Why would God administer the law in the first place? Because of SIN! Unfortunately, the LAW doesn't bring any inheritance of promises to his people; instead it brings death and misery and condemnation. God knew this but he wanted his people to see clearly why no one can be justified under God's law.

Galatians 3:18
King James Version (KJV)

"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."

1 Corinthians 15:56
King James Version (KJV)

"The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."

2 Corinthians 3:6
King James Version (KJV)

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

Hebrews 7:22
King James Version (KJV)

"By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament." (AKA GRACE).

The LAW simply condemns us to death - this is how God reacts to sinners. Jesus Christ solved this problem by fulfilling the LAW for us so we wouldn't experience death in the afterlife. No one was righteous, no, not one. By Jesus Christ death, his righteousness is imputeth to our record (everyone) - that's the beauty of it. After Christ died on the cross, God no longer sees sin in us, instead, he see Jesus Christ in our heart. There's no longer any condemnation. In the Old Testament - yes, the law condemns us:

Romans 8:3-4
King James Version (KJV)

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Matthew 5:17
King James Version (KJV)

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Jesus Christ is the better testament what the law could not provide. Let me say this: everyone is saved in the spirit. Everyone will see Jesus Christ after death. Regardless if you're a believer or unbeliever, Jesus Christ remains faithful to both as evident in the scripture:

2 Timothy 2:13
King James Version (KJV)

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

Amazing, is it not?

Look at 2nd Corinthians 5:14:

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead"

Romans 6:5 reads:

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection"

Paul clearly said that “if one died for all, then were ALL dead.” Now look at 2nd Timothy 2:11:

"It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him"

Look at 1st Corinthians 15:22

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

1 John 2:2
King James Version (KJV)

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Look at 1st Corinthians 15:45:

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living SOUL; the last Adam was made a quickening SPIRIT."

The above verse is important because annihilationists love to argue, “wages of sin is death…the SOUL that sins shall die” as they argue for extinction of unbelievers. Those verses they quote is exactly what Paul was saying, “In Adam ALL die.” The SOUL that sins shall die according to Ezekiel as that is the Adam who was made a living SOUL, as we die in him. Adam the living "soul" we all die, but in Christ the quickening spirit we all live. Immortality is to all.

Steve Job was a Buddhist himself and didn't believe in Jesus Christ. Right before his death, he saw a bright light and he said: "OH WOW. OH WOW. OH WOW."

“Before embarking, he’d looked at his sister Patty, then for a long time at his children, then at his life’s partner, Laurene, and then over their shoulders past them. Steve’s final words were: OH WOW. OH WOW. OH WOW.”

He saw something right before he died? I have the reason to believe he saw Jesus Christ. I could be wrong. But hey, won't we find out eventually?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... story.html

A forum handler named "Ilene Wright" said:

"Supposedly he looked at his family, his wife and then looked past them all and saw "something" that amazed him. Guess we'll never know. I think he saw the famous bright white light. Then, lights out."

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/atheism- ... z3NBFzElrv

We simply don't know, yet. Atheist seem to relish death... like those emos.

omegaflare wrote:Steve Job was a Buddhist himself and didn't believe in Jesus Christ. Right before his death, he saw a bright light and he said: "OH WOW. OH WOW. OH WOW."

How do you know what he (Steve Jobs- correct spelling) said before his death? You write it as if you were present at his death bed? If you are quoting someone else who was present, please present it as a quote.

Yes, like those emos we are, indeed. We LOVE death. We show this by, for example, only wearing black clothes. I personally wear all black with skulls that have splattered blood on them. We also frequently engage in summoning the Dark One in our secret bat-cave meetings. To get in, you need to recite 'Antichrist Superstar,' and have forced at least 10 people to convert to the cult of atheism. Like by making students write "God is Dead" on paper, for instance. It's a real good time. <3

EquALLity wrote:Yes, like those emos we are, indeed. We LOVE death. We show this by, for example, only wearing black clothes. I personally wear all black with skulls that have splattered blood on them. We also frequently engage in summoning the Dark One in our secret bat-cave meetings. To get in, you need to recite 'Antichrist Superstar,' and have forced at least 10 people to convert to the cult of atheism. Like by making students write "God is Dead" on paper, for instance. It's a real good time. <3

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Well, omega said that atheists relish death, like "those emos."

I was just being sarcastic.

omegaflare wrote:The level of violence during the Old Testament is astoundingly high. Unlike Justice system we have here in the United States, people in the Old Testament are VIOLENT!

I'm not denying that. Those people include some of God's greatest buddies in the old testament, like Samuel and Samson. My point is that if your god existed, he would have been the one to create the violence in the first place while he could have prevented it in a peaceful manner.

Why would God administer the law in the first place? Because of SIN! Unfortunately, the LAW doesn't bring any inheritance of promises to his people; instead it brings death and misery and condemnation. God knew this but he wanted his people to see clearly why no one can be justified under God's law.

All this proved to me is that the God of the bible is a cruel asshole, and incredibly evil.

The LAW simply condemns us to death - this is how God reacts to sinners. Jesus Christ solved this problem by fulfilling the LAW for us so we wouldn't experience death in the afterlife. No one was righteous, no, not one. By Jesus Christ death, his righteousness is imputeth to our record (everyone) - that's the beauty of it. After Christ died on the cross, God no longer sees sin in us, instead, he see Jesus Christ in our heart. There's no longer any condemnation. In the Old Testament - yes, the law condemns us:

This in no way justifies the violence he brought upon mankind before. It was unnecessary and evil.

He saw something right before he died? I have the reason to believe he saw Jesus Christ. I could be wrong. But hey, won't we find out eventually?

What reason exactly do you have to believe he saw Jesus Christ? Even if he did, it could have been a hallucination, how would you rule that out?

Atheist seem to relish death... like those emos.

Bullshit. Theists are the ones that believe death will just bring them to a better place. To atheists, however, this is the only life we get and that makes it infinitely more precious. Atheists treasure life and try to make the absolute most out of it.