Philosophical Vegan Forum

I'm Eyad from Saudi Arabia, I've been vegan for almost a year now. I have gone plant-based several times in the past but failed because I wasn't eating right and I never made an ethical connection or understood the actual cause since I only thought it can "cure" diseases and all that sorts. After researching and watching YouTubers such as Unnatural Vegan, I came to the conclusion that the health argument for veganism is weak and environmental, philosophical, and ethical arguments for veganism are stronger and hold much more weight. =150][/size]

Hey eyad, welcome to the forum!
If you don't mind me asking, what is it like being a vegan in Saudi Arabia? Is it viewed positively? I've heard one of the Princes is Vegan.

Hello.
Veganism in Saudi Arabia is growing massively. It is not viewed negatively/positively per se but it's viewed as unnecessary/religiously misguided because some people disregard the moral aspect of it, and almost everyone thinks it's simply a dietary choice to lose weight or whatever. We have so many vegan groups and meetups which help new vegans understand the cause and how to correctly go vegan. Vegan products are found almost everywhere (milk, cheese, mock meats. etc.) Almost every restaurant has veg options, and we have some new fully vegan restaurants and cafes.
Yes, there is a prince who's vegan, Prince Khaled bin Alwaleed who plans to franchise vegan restaurants all over the Gulf.

Welcome eyad,

Great to learn that veganism is growing in Saudi Arabia.

eyad wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:40 pmAfter researching and watching YouTubers such as Unnatural Vegan, I came to the conclusion that the health argument for veganism is weak and environmental, philosophical, and ethical arguments for veganism are stronger and hold much more weight

I'm wondering how you came to that conclusion. Although it is possible for a vegan to eat in an unhealthful manner, I can't think of any non-vegan foods that are good for you.

Hello,
The science does show that animal foods are not inherently bad for us, Greek yogurt, for example, is full of probiotics and protein. A vegan diet is not a magical "cure-all" that can reverse or cure diseases, even though some plant-based doctors say so, the scientific consensus and research disprove this argument. We know that saturated fat is a cause for atherosclerosis, however, the science does not conclude that *only* a plant-based diet is effective in reducing saturated fats but also a diet with, for instance, steamed skinless chicken breast or fish.
We don't yet have enough evidence to objectively say that a well-planned plant-based diet is significantly healthier, or that it reduces mortality rates than a well-planned diet with a few animal products, such as the ones mentioned above. I think to promote the notion that a vegan diet can "heal" or "cure", is dangerous and can inversely cause people to go back to eating meat.

Now that said, do I think this argument justifies eating meat? Hell no.

eyad wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:09 pmThe science does show that animal foods are not inherently bad for us

I think you should have a second look. I would recommend studies that are not industry funded.

eyad wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:09 pmGreek yogurt, for example, is full of probiotics and protein.

That's a bit like saying beer is good for you because it has vitamin B and potassium. There are ways of getting probiotics and protein without also getting methionine, casein, saturated fat or high sugar.

eyad wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:09 pmA vegan diet is not a magical "cure-all" that can reverse or cure diseases, even though some plant-based doctors say so

No one serious about nutrition uses the term "vegan diet" as it can mean so many different things. There are vegans who only eat processed foods, potato chips, and Oreo cookies, while others only eat plant-based whole foods. A plant=based whole food diet actually can prevent and reverse many diseases.

I agree that industry-funded studies can be biased, but it's not a secret thing as they have to declare where the funding came from, conflicts of interest, etc. However, I was referring to dietetic organizations that maintain unbiased despite funding and fully support a plant-based diet, such as the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. I also did not deny that you can get probiotics and protein from vegan foods but I acknowledged that Greek yogurt is a good source of them.
To be clear, I'm not completely close-minded about this topic, however, we lack the evidence to objectively state that a well-planned plant-based diet is significantly healthier than including a few non-vegan foods mentioned above. There is a worrying amount of people who go vegan simply for health reasons, such as me in the past, and end up disappointed that their acne did not clear up or they're still having severe GI issues, then go back to eating meat. There is also a worrying amount of vegan influencers who promote absolute pseudoscience and push it as activism.
I absolutely agree that a whole-foods plant-based diet does reduce your saturated fat intake and thus reduce your LDL levels, lowering your risk for heart disease. However, I still believe that we as vegans should not make grandiose health claims until we have sufficient evidence to prove that whole foods plant-based diet is significantly healthier and decreases mortality rates compared to a balanced omnivorous diet.

Welcome eyad!

The healthiness of a food is relative. Unhealthy, healthy? Where's the baseline? If you set healthy at broccoli then basically every other food on the planet is unhealthy. If you set the baseline at white bread as neutral then you get a lot of foods above ("healthy") and below it ("unhealthy"). Low fat yogurt might beat white bread in some significant respects.

I think most people in policy set the baseline at the Standard American Diet, so anything better than the average food in that diet is healthy, and that ends up including a lot of animal products with pretty much all vegetables and whole grains, and the only things that end up being unhealthy are sodas/candy and bacon and cheeseburgers and such.