New memeber long term pescetarian

[Forests]

Hi

I am a long term pescetarian for 12 years from the UK very interested in animal rights. For the last 4 years I have been reading hundreds of papers on animal rights. I am not yet published in peer review but aim to have my first paper published one day, that is the plan.

In regard to philosophy I used to be a philosophical idealist in my teens, I then shifted towards panpsychism. I then became a staunch materialist. I have now gone back to panpsychism or more accurately a form of hylozoism.

I am not a fan of organized religion I have done my research and have read many books on the subject. I went through an atheist phase but from a young age was always a believer in a non-personal God. I have always tended to learn towards pantheism or philosophical theism. I am open to the idea of a God existing but for me in regard to the problem of evil it would not be personal in nature. I am basically in the boat of pantheism or panentheism. I have a collection of atheist books so I actually agree with a lot of what atheists write but I do not go the whole way.

I have suffered from a lot of depression and self harm throughout the years.

In regard to music I listen to black metal / dark ambient I grew up on this stuff.

I have wanted to convert to a vegan diet, I have tried it once but it did not work for me. I would like to try it again someday. I have tried altering my diet many times but the pescetarian one is the only one that seems to agree with me.

I found this forum through a post about LDL causing cardiovascular disease. I am a firm believer that a diet high in saturated fat/trans fat or processed sugar is very bad for the body. I don't post on any other forums nor have any social media but I do watch a lot of documentaries and music videos on YouTube. I would like to post here now and again if my account is approved.

Forests

[Jebus]

Welcome Forests,

Do you believe fish feel pain? What was it about the "vegan diet" that didn't work for you?

Sorry about your depression issues. Do you exercise regularly? The reason I ask is that I have never met anyone depressed who exercises.

We used to have a lot of discussions about religion. You can still find them if you use the search function.

I think @Dream Sphere will be happy to discuss metal with you.

I'm looking forward to reading your posts.

[Forests]

Ah well I just typed a long response to you but I clicked the x by the mistake my mouse slipped and I lost it all. That's unfortunate!

I am interested in a version of the paleo diet so I don't eat grains, legumes, dairy, processed sugar etc. The vegan diet destroyed my health but that might be because I was eating wheat and other grains. I had no energy and was tired all the time. I had to go to the hospital I had some serious nutritional deficiencies. On the paleo pescatarian diet that I have planned out over the years I feel in good health.

I feel better being gluten free and have much more energy. There are a lot of anti-nutrients in many grains and legumes. I also have a soy allergy so do not eat that but I know most vegans do.

There is a still a big debate about pain in fish but there is some good evidence teleost fish feel pain. I should start a thread on fish and pain it might make an interesting discussion. I see the plant pain topic has been debated a lot on this forum in the past.

[Red]

Welcome to the forum, Forests! Sorry for the belated response, please don't think I have been avoiding you, a great many matters require my attention in these... troubled times.

Feel free to join in on any discussion that interests you.

[brimstoneSalad]

Ah well I just typed a long response to you but I clicked the x by the mistake my mouse slipped and I lost it all. That's unfortunate!

If you're in the full editor (rather than quick reply), the forum has a feature that saves drafts automatically. See down below the input box, where it says "load quick draft"?
Do the same thing you did before (if it was quoting, do that) then click "load quick draft" and a recent version of your post should be saved there.

I don't think it saves from the quick response editor, but most replies here are with the quote function.


Pain proper isn't really morally relevant. Ever been to a dentist, and under excruciating agony, have the dentist tell you "It's not pain, it's sensitivity"?
Technical medical definition pain is specifically a reaction to tissue damage or potential damage. There are many many many extremely unpleasant sensations that are not technically pain -- being waterboarded, for example.

It's probably better to consider whether the animal can learn to avoid things it doesn't like as a sign the animal doesn't like those things rather than sticking to certain narrowly defined qualia.

Most people don't have trouble with those foods you mentioned, but maybe there's something wrong with your digestive system.
Have you considered Ostroveganism?

[Forests]

Ah well I just typed a long response to you but I clicked the x by the mistake my mouse slipped and I lost it all. That's unfortunate!

If you're in the full editor (rather than quick reply), the forum has a feature that saves drafts automatically. See down below the input box, where it says "load quick draft"?
Do the same thing you did before (if it was quoting, do that) then click "load quick draft" and a recent version of your post should be saved there.

I don't think it saves from the quick response editor, but most replies here are with the quote function.


Pain proper isn't really morally relevant. Ever been to a dentist, and under excruciating agony, have the dentist tell you "It's not pain, it's sensitivity"?
Technical medical definition pain is specifically a reaction to tissue damage or potential damage. There are many many many extremely unpleasant sensations that are not technically pain -- being waterboarded, for example.

It's probably better to consider whether the animal can learn to avoid things it doesn't like as a sign the animal doesn't like those things rather than sticking to certain narrowly defined qualia.

Most people don't have trouble with those foods you mentioned, but maybe there's something wrong with your digestive system.
Have you considered Ostroveganism?

Yes thanks for the help, I will now use full editor rather than quick reply.

I don't know if you have heard of Michael Huemer but he is an American philosopher who advocates ostroveganism. He wrote about it in his latest book "Dialogues on Ethical Vegetarianism".

James E. McWilliams has also come out in support of vegans eating molluscs and has now written blog posts telling people to eat insects. The paleo diet advocates are very fond of shellfish because there is archaeological evidence tracing it back to early humans.

However, I am not convinced about ostroveganism. I have tried eating clams and oysters and they taste disgusting to me. It doesn't make sense to me why we would eat something in a shell. And because it is animal protein then its not really a type of veganism, it would better be called ostro-pescatarianism or something like that. Yes a bit of a semantics dispute over terminology which is silly but as a pescatarian I only eat about four fish species and that is it. I eat local fish as well. It is not sustainable to be eating all that exotic stuff, this is where some vegans go wrong. They are eating imported foods from thousands of miles a way. How can that be good for the environment?

I know a few people who have had food poisoning from clams. It's a very yucky idea to eat those, I never really understood it.

My diet is about 60-70% sweet potato right now and I feel very good on this. I grow them myself and get them from local farm shops.

[Jebus]

The paleo diet advocates are very fond of shellfish because there is archaeological evidence tracing it back to early humans.

This is one of my problems with the paleo diet. It assumes that ancient humans all ate the same way. People ate differently in different regions. If you search long enough you can find that people ate nearly anything.

Even if everyone ate the same way, that does not mean that we "evolved" into reacting better to certain foods than others. If that were the case, human breast milk would be the ultimate food for babies.

I have tried eating clams and oysters and they taste disgusting to me.

That's an excellent reason for not eating something.

It doesn't make sense to me why we would eat something in a shell.

Why not?

And because it is animal protein then its not really a type of veganism, it would better be called ostro-pescatarianism or something like that.

What is more important? Something perfectly fitting into someone's definition of veganism, or whether or not the consumption of a certain food causes any suffering?

Regarding the definition of pescetarianism, I know people (such as my wife) who eats fish, but not other meats, eggs, or dairy. However, most "pescatarians" also consume dairy and/or eggs. This is an important distinction. Since we already have the term ostro-vegan, I think pesce-vegan would be a good term for the first category.

My diet is about 60-70% sweet potato right now and I feel very good on this. I grow them myself and get them from local farm shops.

That's awesome!

[brimstoneSalad]

It doesn't make sense to me why we would eat something in a shell.

Why?

And because it is animal protein then its not really a type of veganism, it would better be called ostro-pescatarianism or something like that.

It's a question of ethics because oysters probably aren't sentient, but otherwise there are three problems: As Jebus said pescetarians typically consume egg and dairy too, ostrovegans don't eat fish which is what the pesca part means, and pescetarians usually eat oysters anyway so it's meaningless to append it.

I eat local fish as well. It is not sustainable to be eating all that exotic stuff, this is where some vegans go wrong. They are eating imported foods from thousands of miles a way. How can that be good for the environment?

That's a myth, embodied energy/carbon from transport is a very small amount of the energy/carbon it takes to produce food and other products. It's not like human transport moving a 150 lb person in a 4,000 lb car over city streets.
Distribution infrastructure relies largely on very efficient modes of transportation like boat and train, the least efficient being the trucks that take things to their final destinations (but still far more efficient than a car considering the amount of goods they carry and the small relative share of that transportation type).

Eating avocados brought to you from half way around the world in a place ideally suited to growing them is more environmentally friendly than eating those grown in your town but achieving poor yields and quality per input. Such is the wonders of modern transportation infrastructure.
Sea shipping is also going green, which is a big deal, and will change that even more.

I know a few people who have had food poisoning from clams. It's a very yucky idea to eat those, I never really understood it.

Maybe don't eat them raw.

My diet is about 60-70% sweet potato right now and I feel very good on this. I grow them myself and get them from local farm shops.

Storage of potatoes is very carbon intensive because they require constant climate control to prevent them from spoiling or sprouting. They're one of the worst staples in terms of global warming impact along side rice (because of the methane). Better than meat, but not by a whole lot.

If you eat local, also remember to only eat things that are:
1. In season
2. Are best suited to being grown where you live
3. Provide similar or superior yields for input compared to other non-local crops.

Many places have no such foods, and for those places it's always more environmentally friendly to import foods from where they grow better. Attempts to eat local are frequently counter-productive and increase carbon footprint.

[Forests]

Eating avocados brought to you from half way around the world in a place ideally suited to growing them is more environmentally friendly than eating those grown in your town but achieving poor yields and quality per input. Such is the wonders of modern transportation infrastructure.
Sea shipping is also going green, which is a big deal, and will change that even more.

That's a myth, embodied energy/carbon from transport is a very small amount of the energy/carbon it takes to produce food and other products.

I am not talking about growing exotic foods locally. I grow common fruits and vegetables that have been grown in my country for thousands of years such as cabbage or carrots, basic stable foods. The sweet potato in the last 8 years is now being grown in my country its becoming more of a staple food. Hopefully you agree that by growing some fresh vegetables in your back garden or local allotment this is much better for the environment than importing exotic fruits or vegetables from half way around the world 1000s of miles away packaged in plastic and sprayed with chemicals.

Avocados are not vegan because they all contain shellac that is rubbed on them (at least here in the UK). If you live in the USA you might be able to get them without it but otherwise you will have to grow them. I agree it makes no sense to do that if the growing conditions are not good but I don't know the data on if it would be better than importing. That's why I don't grow anything like avocados. In my country they are all imported.

Sea shipping causes much more air pollution than cars, there is also the noise pollution problem and water pollution. Apparently just one large ship produces as much sulphur as 50 million cars (yeah that's crazy). The idea of sea shipping going "green" is something not many will take seriously. But there is now a sulphur cap on ships introduced last year https://www.imo.org/en/MediaCentre/HotT ... -2020.aspx so things are improving I guess.

Storage of potatoes is very carbon intensive because they require constant climate control to prevent them from spoiling or sprouting. They're one of the worst staples in terms of global warming impact along side rice (because of the methane). Better than meat, but not by a whole lot.

You can list almost every food on the planet and there will always be a counter-claim that it is somehow bad to the environment. I agree with you about the storage problems but that doesn't happen on a local basis if you are growing them yourself. The sweet potato is one of the most environmental friendly foods we can eat

https://healabel.com/s-ingredients/sweet-potatoes

It has a low carbon footprint and a low water footprint. It is sustainable because it does not damage the air, soil or water and does not
kill any animals.I don't know If you know about Bioethanol but it is a renewable energy source. They can create bioethenal from sweet potatoes.

I agree with you about the methane problem from rice farms. If you look up most grains they are all bad for the environment. N fertilizers are used on grains such as rye and wheat which have a high GHG emission. If you are going down this route then surely as a vegan you should give up grains? When you start looking into this you might realise that the paleo option is actually more green than the vegan option. The paleo crowd have been saying it for years but grains and legumes are not natural foods for human consumption.

[Forests]

brimstoneSalad you might be interested in this list of foods, food miles and CO2 figures

Here is just the avocado to get to me and its over 5000 miles. I already talked about the shellac issue but avocadoes have some serious environmental problems

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-c ... 33264.html

Code: Select all

AVOCADOS (HASS)

Commercial avocado orchards produce an average of seven tons of the fruit per hectare each year, with some orchards achieving 20 tons per hectare. The fruit is native to Mexico and Central America, although large quantities of avocados are also exported from Israel and South Africa. The avocado is delicate and does not tolerate freezing temperatures and can be grown only in subtropical and tropical climates.

Main exporter: Mexico 
Food miles to UK: 5,500 
C02 (kg per avocado): by sea 0.03; by air 0.89 
Price: £1.99/600g, £3.32/kg (Waitrose)

As you can see, this is 5,500 miles just to get to me. There is no way I can grow an avocado in my country.

Are you saying it is vegan to actually purchase these?

If you read this you would probably change your mind

Despite this massive creation of value and success, extensive avocado production has substantial and irretrievable environmental costs and damages. Disproportionately huge demand for the fruit is creating a climate change effect. Forest lands with diverse wildlife have been destroyed to produce avocado, and many more were intentionally burned to bypass a Mexican law allowing producers to change the land-use permit to commercial agriculture instead of forest land, if it was lost to burning.

Around 9.5 billion litres of water are used daily to produce avocado – equivalent to 3,800 Olympic pools – requiring a massive extraction of water from Michoacán aquifers. Excessive extraction of water from these aquifers is having unexpected consequences, such as causing small earthquakes. From 5 January to 15 February, 3,247 seismic movements were recorded in Uruapan municipality and surroundings, the most important avocado-producing area in the world. According to local authorities, avocado-related water extraction has opened up subsoil caverns that could be causing these movements.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/02/ ... od-mexico/

This is depressing but a reality.

Bottom line this will turn into an ethical vs environmental debate. I am more interested in the grain subject so I started a thread on that and will respond there later.