Is it morally defensible for vegans to have kids?

[Jebus]

Obviously the moral choice would be to adopt, but would it be morally ok for vegan couples to have kids if they are not eligible to adopt? I am leaning towards answering yes although it is quite a complex issue. One of the key questions is the likelihood of a vegan child to stay vegan. Here is a pretty good article on the issue: http://web.archive.org/web/199802040629 ... create.htm

[brimstoneSalad]

No, the most moral choice is to provide foster-care.

Focus on older teenagers, where you can provide the most influence for the time you have them, and be as cool and inspiring as possible.

Influencing a child for 18 years isn't much more meaningful than influencing them for a couple months. Diminishing returns.

but would it be morally ok for vegan couples to have kids if they are not eligible to adopt?

You don't have to do the most right thing all of the time to avoid being a bad person. Yes, it would be better to be exclusively a serial foster parent (which is also easier than adopting, and the government pays you), but if you're eligible, it doesn't mean you should have to do it.

There are plenty of things that, with inordinate effort and deviation from our own life goals, we could do.
You don't have to give up your entire life to not be a bad person. You might be a better person if you do, but you could still be a good person while doing some sub-optimal things that you want to do (as long as you're not harming others in ways that are easily avoidable).

One of the key questions is the likelihood of a vegan child to stay vegan. Here is a pretty good article on the issue:

Yes, that is the main key to whether having a child will be good or extremely harmful to the world.

Anecdotally, I once knew a vegan who had vegan parents, and was a life-long vegan, and then gave it up and stopped caring, beginning to use all of the bad rationalizations carnists use, having known for a lifetime how to debunk them.

Recidivism is the rule, not the exception to the rule.

That said, I will eviscerate that article.

[long diatribe about how terrible it is to be vegan] Is it fair to inflict all this on a being just because you want a baby?

Massive exaggeration of the horrible suffering it is to be a vegan. Come on, it's not a big deal; much less so today even (even the 90's weren't that bad).
You get much more shit for not being Christian/Muslim/or whatever the dominant religion is where you live -- should children then be indoctrinated in that, just to avoid being thought of as different?
I don't like to make arguments from self-interest to do the right thing, but having a strong ethical principle strengthens one's sense of self identity and esteem, particularly when it can be compared to one's peers.

Persecution doesn't make people weaker.

The vast majority of vegans were brought up to wear leather and eat meat and dairy products. Will a lot of vegan children be as quick to reject our vegan lifestyle as we were to reject that of our parents?

Very bad comparison. Since only an incredible minority of people go and stay vegan. If it were only that, you could be safe in assuming your children would follow your example.
Social and peer pressures are much more relevant.

Of course, I agree that teaching a child the correct way to relate to other living creatures is essential, but one can argue the morality of imposing our own thoughts onto another's personality. I certainly deplore the indoctrination of religion and other damaging influences such as racism and sexism, but one does not own a child[...]

No, one can not argue that. Not with a straight face, or any sense at all. I don't know if that's serious, or where it's coming from. All things are not equal. Of course it's wrong to teach racism -- because racism is wrong. It's also wrong to indoctrinate a child in religion, because it's anti-scientific nonsense that causes harm to the world.
Sometimes people try so hard to be fair minded they end up absent minded.

The more pressing issue mentioned after, which is valid, is societal pressure.

This is an old article. Some time in the 90's it seems. The author may not have understood the social advancement that would be made since then.
If somebody had a child when this article came out, that child would probably be turning 18 around now -- in a very different world to when the article was written.

If you have a child now, that child will be able to make his or her own choices in 2032. Do you know what society will look like then?
The only thing we can be relatively sure of is that social progress will be progressive, and technological progress will accommodate that.

Real vegan cheese (with vegan casein) is a couple years off. Mock-meats are catching on and getting better. Bio-reacted meat may be a decade off for regulatory reasons, but as soon as it's commercially viable it should catch on, at least within the cheap convenience food market (and if, politically, we manage to put a cap on greenhouse gas emissions, it will be in a serious push). Like technological progress, biotechnological progress is on an upward trending exponential curve.

But let's put all of that aside as uncertainties. Some unknown force blocks technological development. Jesus kills all of the scientists magically.

What happens then?

It is more your child's peers than parents that influence his or her moral and social development. And that's also a choice that you, as a parent, can make.
Seek out other vegan parents with vegan children.
Find older vegan kids for your younger vegan child to hang out with who can inspire them and show them that it's still cool even when mom and dad stop being cool.

Yes, this costs time and money. But if you aren't prepared to put in the work to raise a child properly, you really shouldn't have one.
Just churning out a kid into the public system is not going to do much good.

The article does get one thing right (well, mostly):

It must be said that if you, as a vegan, choose to give birth to a child and it later turns out to be a meat eater, it renders your own personal commitment completely invalid.

It's a statistical matter; it's not like you're blameless if you just happen to get lucky, or at fault only if you get unlucky.
Even if your child accidentally turns out to be vegan, that doesn't mean you did right (that's like firing a gun into a crowd, and by dumb luck not hitting anybody).
Taking appropriate precautions, and the time and effort in child rearing (and in molding the child's social environment), is essential.

Otherwise, if you want to be lazy and just dump them in the public system all day to be raised as society deems fit while you do other things and look at the photos on your fridge, then sure, adopt. Worst case, they end up how they probably would have ended up anyway.
Or better yet, as mentioned above, serial foster parentage.

[PrincessPeach]

I love my son <3

He says hello to all the animals even the smallest of bugs and he even remembers from a week ago that I killed a lizard on the bike (ran it over and had to stomp it to death it had a baby egg in too )

He still says "Bug hurt" only 25months old too.

Anyone can have kids if they want to vegan or not.

[Jebus]

Anyone can have kids if they want to vegan or not.

That sounds a lot like "anyone can eat meat if they want to or not." It's not against the law, but that doesn't make it right. I am actually in favor of vegans having kids in case they are not eligible to adopt, but one must realize the enormous negative impact of bringing a non vegan person to the world.

[PrincessPeach]

That sounds a lot like "anyone can eat meat if they want to or not." It's not against the law, but that doesn't make it right. I am actually in favor of vegans having kids in case they are not eligible to adopt, but one must realize the enormous negative impact of bringing a non vegan person to the world.

I wouldn't compare those two at all no!!

How many of us were born into a vegan family??

More than half of the vegan movement was born in 21st century by non vegan parents....



Evolution... Vegolution

[Jebus]

I wouldn't compare those two at all no!!

Why not? They are both legal and they both cause harm to the environment.

How many of us were born into a vegan family??

More than half of the vegan movement was born in 21st century by non vegan parents....

Sorry but I lost you there. How is that relevant to the discussion?

[Lightningman_42]

How many of us were born into a vegan family??

More than half of the vegan movement was born in 21st century by non vegan parents....

Evolution... Vegolution

More than half of all vegans in the world are 15 or younger? How do you know this?

[PrincessPeach]

More than half of all vegans in the world are 15 or younger? How do you know this?

No one knows for sure but from reviewing popular social media sites you will find that the majority of the users are TEENAGERS! I can totally understand why they look at their parents and everyone else around them being fat as fuck and they're like "How do I not turn into that when I am older?" ...

Honestly we have pretty good statistics here
With every new child born there is a 1 out of 30 chance that child will become a vegetarian !

[PrincessPeach]

Why not? They are both legal and they both cause harm to the environment.

The only way to change the human population is to make a new population...
We are still evolving
Once every persons skin is a pretty caramel color we'll be ok
Either we keep going on with the way that we are and be fucked or we make a new revolution ..

The father of my son was adopted if it wasn't for him I'd probably never have been vegan.

Sorry but I lost you there. How is that relevant to the discussion?

It's not I'm just bias because I chose to have a vegan baby

[Jebus]

Did you know in Thialand it is legal to have sex with children who are 7 years of age or older?

Legal age of consent in Thailand is 15; same as in Sweden. Anyways, pointing out more things that are legal but shouldn't be doesn't make your argument any stronger.

the people in Thialand have accumulatively come together and said hey lets make it legal to fuck little girls!

Definitely the most stupid thing I have read so far in this forum. Also, very offensive to Thai people.

The only way to change the human population is to make a new population...
We are still evolving
Once every persons skin is a pretty caramel color we'll be ok
Either we keep going on with the way that we are and be fucked or we make a new revolution ..

A bigger population doesn't make a better population. It's actually the opposite. I agree that the world will be better once there is only one "race" but a larger population is not going to make that happen any sooner. Interracial couples deciding to have kids will make that happen sooner, but the destruction of the planet and the suffering of the animals are much more urgent issues.