Philosophical Vegan Forum

What do you think of the different sides (Israel and the Arabs)?

What do you think should be done to resolve the conflict, and how do you think we should help the people who are currently being exploited by Hamas in Gaza? What about the refugee crisis, and what do you think of the UN's efforts to solve the problem?

At the moment, I agree with the idea that Hamas etc. are motivated primarily by religious hatred (one reason being that it is written in their charter that their struggle is against Jews), but I'm unsure about what I think of some of Israel's responses to the problem. They target hospitals and schools because Hamas stores weapons in them (and even go out of their way to issue warnings), ok. They've offered two state solutions* and have given up land settlers lived on, but were brought more war, so clearly, they are not negotiating with people who are interested in peace. Not sure about the blockade, though.

UNRWA doesn't seem to have been too helpful.

What do you think of the occupation?
What about the blockade?

*Though I'm not too sure they would do the same today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS8CbgTQEe8 (don't necessarily agree with everything in this video)

UPDATE: I somehow accidently linked to a Bernie Sanders video promotion. Fixed that.

The problem is rooted in the concept of the "Jewish state", which makes non-Jews second class citizens. If Israel were made a truly secular state where all religions were treated equally, the religious hatred would likely be much diminished.

They probably won't do that, though (particularly as they continue to stack the polls with preferential immigration), and as such (since this is a fight between two religions), I'm inclined to stay out of it. When and if one side becomes reasonable and fully secular, I will favor that side. Until then, both sides have valid complaints.

brimstoneSalad wrote:The problem is rooted in the concept of the "Jewish state", which makes non-Jews second class citizens. If Israel were made a truly secular state where all religions were treated equally, the religious hatred would likely be much diminished.

It does? I heard there was an Arab judge on the Israeli Supreme Court, and that Israel was the only country in the region to grant the refugees equal rights.

The UK is officially a Christian country, right? But it doesn't make non-Christians second-class citizens.
UPDATE- Hm, it seems there is some disagreement on whether or not the UK is a Christian country, but England still officially is, and it doesn't discriminate like that.

Do you think a Jewish state doesn't need to exist? What do you think of these arguments?

Pat Condell wrote: Israel needs to exist because there needs to be a Jewish state. Humanity has proven conclusively over many centuries that it cannot be trusted not to persecute Jews. Jew hatred seems to be written right into our DNA because it just keeps coming back. Any Jew who thinks the Holocaust could never happen again is a fool. There are plenty of people on this earth who would love to see it happen again, and many of them live in the countries around Israel. When Arab armies have attacked in the past they have bragged in advance about committing genocide, and they've still been bragging about it as they were getting their sorry arses deservedly kicked again and again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHC8KC5cLs8

Pat Condell wrote:The fact that a Jewish State needs to exist at all, and it does need to exist, is an indictment on all of humanity, and especially the Catholic Church, whose centuries-long programme of aggressive Jew hatred has been ingrained right into the European psyche so that it takes almost nothing to bring it out. And that's why, if I were a Jew, even a non-Zionist peace-campaigning liberal Jew, and there are plenty of them, I would want to see a strong Israel, because when push comes to shove people simply will not stand up for Jews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIesXORjBps

England still is kind of a theocracy. The Queen is also the head of the church. She could issue a fatwa tomorrow, and pardon any of her citizens that murdered atheists on her behalf. The monarchy and the church still have power. Until very recently, the Church of England enjoyed enormous and unreasonable tax benefits. It probably still receives government money in any number of ways, and neither the crown nor the church should have the land holdings they maintain. Anyway, that's another issue. The UK is largely agnostic, which is helping to limit the power of the church today, but unfortunately also largely indifferent.

Atheists are second class citizens in the U.S., where children are indoctrinated at school by being made to say a pledge to god, and those who will not say it are very visibly set aside and ostracized, where all of the money is covered in theistic prayer, along with words upon government buildings, and prayers at the start of legislative sessions. The military is controlled largely by the Christian right specifically, and rather than a general theistic quality, it's specifically about Jesus. Government money goes to support organizations practicing religious discrimination, and is funneled away from secular charities into divisive religious ones instead. Presidents have even give us quotes like, "No, I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God."

That's what it feels like to be a second class citizen. To be, by proclamation of the government, of less value for some reason. To have the state formally reject and classify as wrong your religious views. To have the money you are forced to pay in taxes subtly channeled into religious practices you disagree with, and be denied to those you support.
It's pervasive and nefarious.

Israel is worse. If you don't belong to the right religious group, you may not even be able to get married. And as mentioned before, there are serious issues with religious inequality in immigration, and much more.
This isn't a subject I have studied much, but the more I do, the more I can sympathize with the second class citizen status many people in Israel feel.
Yes, there is a token minority of Muslims in the government. That doesn't mean much, though.

There is a movement to secularize Israel, but against the conservative and Zionist pressures, it's a hard one.

I don't agree with Pat Condell, I don't think there's really evidence of a need for a state that discriminates against anybody who isn't an Orthodox Jew. The "Jewish state" status is probably responsible for more trouble than anything else. There are Palestinian Jews fighting against Israeli encroachment too; it's not just Muslims.

It's a messy political situation, and I don't like to take sides in these kinds of issues. There are problems from both ends. If it was a more black and white issue, I'd feel more comfortable commenting on it with an opinion. As it stands, the whole situation is kind of a shit sandwich.

brimstoneSalad wrote:England still is kind of a theocracy. The Queen is also the head of the church. She could issue a fatwa tomorrow, and pardon any of her citizens that murdered atheists on her behalf. The monarchy and the church still have power. Until very recently, the Church of England enjoyed enormous and unreasonable tax benefits. It probably still receives government money in any number of ways, and neither the crown nor the church should have the land holdings they maintain.

Oh wow, that's bad.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Anyway, that's another issue. The UK is largely agnostic, which is helping to limit the power of the church today, but unfortunately also largely indifferent.

I was just trying to get across the point that a country can be religiously oriented but not actually discriminate against people not of the state's religion.

brimstoneSalad wrote:and those who will not say it are very visibly set aside and ostracized

Well, that's not necessarily true. If you don't stand, yeah. Teachers actually try to push you to stand, out of what they call respect for the country, or the flag, or whatever. But you have the option to stand and not say the pledge, or to say all of it except "under gawd".

Of course, it still shouldn't be in the pledge in the first place, because of separation of church and state and all that. Schools shouldn't be taking sides there. And apparently, some publicly funded schools can even teach creationism. http://www.slate.com/articles/health_an ... tives.html

brimstoneSalad wrote:I don't agree with Pat Condell, I don't think there's really evidence of a need for a state that discriminates against anybody who isn't an Orthodox Jew. The "Jewish state" status is probably responsible for more trouble than anything else.

Maybe he doesn't believe that there is discrimination? He has this on his website:

Pat Condell wrote:In short, I support Israel, a civilised pluralist democracy where all citizens, Jewish and Arab, are equal.

Don’t believe the “apartheid” propaganda.

(http://www.patcondell.net/israel-and-palestine/)

Or maybe he just thinks that the other side is so horrible that he sides with them regardless (and well, you can be an Arab Jew, but then there is that thing about the "apartheid propaganda"). After all, he has said this:

Pat Condell wrote:I don't like some of the stuff the Israeli government does either, but I support Israel's right to exist and to defend itself against people prepared to use women and children as human shields.

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIesXORjBps)

I see that Israel does have some issues, but the other party seems more guilty when they, paraphrasing how Pat puts it, are people launching rockets at civilians hiding behind their own civilians.

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHC8KC5cLs8)

brimstoneSalad wrote:There are Palestinian Jews fighting against Israeli encroachment too; it's not just Muslims.

I don't think that necessarily means that the central problem isn't religious hatred.

EquALLity wrote: Oh wow, that's bad.

Pardons are powerful. The U.S. president has the power too, but if Bush had tried to issue a fatwa against abortion doctors and promise to pardon anybody who killed them, he would have been impeached, removed from office, and sentenced to prison very quickly, and never would have had the chance to issue those pardons. I could be wrong, but I don't know of any legal means to remove a royal (Historically speaking, it's generally only done by removing their heads from their bodies extralegally).

EquALLity wrote: I was just trying to get across the point that a country can be religiously oriented but not actually discriminate against people not of the state's religion.

I don't believe it's possible. As soon as the government says something like "this is the official religion, and this religion is right and the true religion for our citizens" there is an instant kind of discrimination that takes place, even if nothing else changes. As I mentioned, even "god" being on the money or in the pledge creates a sense of discrimination against atheism or any atheistic religions; theists are getting, at the very least, free advertising and propaganda for the world view at the expense of atheists' tax money against their wills. Every time you use money, you're forced to tacitly endorse theism. Every time you stand for the pledge, the same thing; and peer or teacher pressure there is enormous.

EquALLity wrote:Maybe he doesn't believe that there is discrimination? He has this on his website:

It sounds like he's supporting it as the lesser of two evils. Like I said, there's bad stuff on both sides, which makes it more of a grey area. Reasonable people can disagree about which side is more right or more wrong, and it's an intensely political issue. That's why, hating politics, I don't want to take a side on it. I can talk about the issues and problems with each side, but I'm not prepared to make a value judgement on which side it worse.

As far as I'm concerned, it's "a plague on both their houses".
I don't know if they'll ever work things out.
I understand the people who favor one side or another, but I'm not political and I don't like taking these uncertain positions on grey areas like this.

Pat Condell wrote:Don’t believe the “apartheid” propaganda.

Regardless of the degree of severity of discrimination, there is a substantial grain of truth behind any of the propaganda.
That's a serious problem. If Israel ever were to be fully secularized and become blameless in instigation and discrimination, I would take sides.

EquALLity wrote:

brimstoneSalad wrote:There are Palestinian Jews fighting against Israeli encroachment too; it's not just Muslims.

I don't think that necessarily means that the central problem isn't religious hatred.

Nor there being token Muslims in the Israeli government.
The issue is largely religious, but it's complicated.