Philosophical Vegan Forum

It's big because people like to fight over stuff, and this was something that could become polarizing, and where there are a few extreme voices that have come off as less rational that either side can attack. which further polarizes people and encourages them to align with more extreme views themselves.

Many of the advocates for men's rights, or against the current feminist arguments, are actually women in the movement, so I don't think it has anything to do with sex or sexism inherently.

brimstoneSalad wrote:It's big because people like to fight over stuff, and this was something that could become polarizing, and where there are a few extreme voices that have come off as less rational that either side can attack. which further polarizes people and encourages them to align with more extreme views themselves.

Sounds very familiar and true. It's sad that people are so easily driven in such positions, especially for atheists that sometimes like to proclaim to be rational, but most of time actually aren't.

brimstoneSalad wrote:Many of the advocates for men's rights, or against the current feminist arguments, are actually women in the movement, so I don't think it has anything to do with sex or sexism inherently.

Is that actually true? I only know of Jaclyn Glenn (it's hard to know about commenters), which seems to be pretty influenced herself by TheAmazingAtheist.

Volenta wrote: Is that actually true? I only know of Jaclyn Glenn (it's hard to know about commenters), which seems to be pretty influenced herself by TheAmazingAtheist.

I don't know their names, and it's been a while, but it seems like almost a majority are women on youtube.
Of course, there is a bias here created by the fact that women are more able to do it openly without criticism, and that I'm going based on whatever links popped up that I clicked, so there's a degree of Youtube popularity filtering and selection bias there too.

Here's my stand point on feminism. I support feminists. I think there's two big assumptions people make about feminists. The first is that all of them hate all men or want to kill men and they really don't. For a lot of them it's just things like wanting equal pay, being able to walk the street while being able to wear what they want and not worry about things like cat calling or in a worst case scenario rape. The second myth is that femanists think men can never be subject to any form of discrimination. While this is true for the extreme side of it if I would say most femanists do not think this. Men can be discriminated because of there sexuality or what they take interest in and other things of that nature. However in most cases (I'm sure there's some exceptions) men will not be discriminated against purely because they are men unlike women. I welcome discussion on this but I will say I don't know a great deal about feminism so I'm probably not the best person to defend it.

[quote="Campbell305"]men will not be discriminated against purely because they are men unlike women./quote]

Sure they are, just look at how men are discriminated against in custody cases. There is discrimination on both sides of the fence, and I commend those who take a stance against it.

In the U.S., one of the most discriminatory laws against women is one that I have never heard feminists complain about, namely that it is illegal to show your breasts in public, but only if you are a woman.

Jebus wrote: In the U.S., one of the most discriminatory laws against women is one that I have never heard feminists complain about, namely that it is illegal to show your breasts in public, but only if you are a woman.

Topfreedom is a big thing.

But, it's also a battle that has been won repeatedly (and that is relatively easy to win when it comes up), and highly regional. Ordinances often go down to the municipal level, so it's many tiny battles that aren't that exciting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom#United_States

Anyway, it's not illegal to show breasts in the U.S. in general, only in some places, and in particular it is strongly protected by the first amendment if it's part of a political protest, and by equal rights laws in other cases; the laws that make it illegal (where they exist) are antiquated and easily overturned. It is de facto legal throughout the U.S. for a woman to go topless if it's not for a sexual purpose.

That's why you might not have seen the issue come up much.

Jebus wrote:

Campbell305 wrote:men will not be discriminated against purely because they are men unlike women./quote]

Sure they are, just look at how men are discriminated against in custody cases. There is discrimination on both sides of the fence, and I commend those who take a stance against it.

In the U.S., one of the most discriminatory laws against women is one that I have never heard feminists complain about, namely that it is illegal to show your breasts in public, but only if you are a woman.

I put in brackets just before that there will be a few exceptions to that and that is one of them. Now what you're saying about the law in the U.S I have no idea about it but I would imagine that like the rules some states have that say atheists can't hold office there will be laws that over rule that. Even if I'm wrong about that its also illegal for men to walk about with their dicks out. You wouldn't call that oppression as it would be public indecency.

Topfreedom is a big thing.

Yes, but it's not an issue that is often argued by those who identify themselves as feminists and who pursue other common feminist issues, such as equal pay and employment opportunity.

Campbell305 wrote:its also illegal for men to walk about with their dicks out. You wouldn't call that oppression as it would be public indecency./quote]

That's irrelevant in a gender equality discussion as that law (no visible genitals in public) treats both genders equally.

Jebus wrote:

Campbell305 wrote:its also illegal for men to walk about with their dicks out. You wouldn't call that oppression as it would be public indecency./quote]

That's irrelevant in a gender equality discussion as that law (no visible genitals in public) treats both genders equally.

Yes I agree which is why I'm saying women probably don't get angry about that law as it applies to both genders (I know breasts aren't part of reproductive organs but they fall under the same bracket in terms of public decency. At least I think they do anyway). Sorry if I spelt anything wrong there.

Feminism plays a key role in achieving an anarchist society.