Hi, I am Not a Vegan

[Joel.LM]

As, the title says, I am not a vegan. I do not have any issues with consuming animals.

Now, that's out of the way. I am entertaining the thought of going Vegan. Why? for health reasons. yes, the idea does pain me a bit and yes, i do it grudgingly. So, a bit about my self. My family has a long history of heart disease and high cholesterol. A few years back, I started feeling very crumby, really sick, I had big weight problem, and My cholesterol was higher then it should have been. At the ripe young age of 27, I figured i needed to to do something . The doctors and specialist I had seen kept diagnosing me with IBS, Intolerance, and GERD but never seemed to have any solutions, just deal with it. So I gave them the finger and decided to try and experiment on my own. I went on the Paleo diet, or so they call it, I don't like the term and prefer to call at a whole foods diet. I cut out all refined sugars, all grains, all process food, all legumes (I didn't eat these to begin with because they have always made me feel bad anyways) and all dairy. I only eat Vegetables, meats, seeds, and nuts. I saw results with in the first month, I lost a tremendous amount of weight, I started feeling much better, a lot of my previous health issues started to vanish, namely my GERD.

Now, I want to push my self further, but i'm fairly positive that I am Lactose intolerant, I am also fairly positive that I am Celiacs. I still have a few health problems that come and go, not nearly as severe or debilitating as they once where. I would like to see if becoming vegan would eliminate these problems entirely. The challenges are time and family related. I have a wife and two young kids that have been raised on a standard canadian diet, probably slightly better due to my wife side of the family. (My wifes parents are part of the Slow foods movement, organic growing, farming and Co-op community as well as own their own small farm). So being able to cook for them as well as for my self is a must. Being able to prepare meals that can be taken to school or work, and easy meal plans are all things i'm looking for. I am having a really hard time finding vegan recipes that are good for people with celiacs. I was also Baptiste French Roman Catholic but after doing all of my schooling at a Catholic school and studying Philosophy I have been a firm Atheist for a long time (just throwing that in their for fun).

anyways, that's my intro, Ill be perusing around the site for a while. I would love some advice, recommendations, Links, whatever you have to offer.

I appreciate all Valuable feedback.

Cheers

Joel

[novocals]

Hey Joel - I'm new too. I enjoyed most of your post. Good luck to you.

[brimstoneSalad]

Hi Joel,

Why don't you find any moral trouble with harming animals? I think most people do, even if they eat them due to a perception of necessity.
Is this a feeling that is lingering from Catholic tradition that animals don't have souls/are unfeeling machines, or something else?
I'm surprised to hear that you studied philosophy, so I'm wondering if you've thought about it.

In terms of avoiding gluten, that's not very hard, but it also depends on how severe your condition is.

The most healthy diet is pretty much just vegetables, without any cereal grains, and only includes beans/legumes and a moderate amount of nuts/seeds. So, you're pretty close already. The only thing that's not "paleo" in that is beans.
You may benefit from reading Dr. Fuhrman.

Aside from veggies, beans, and seeds, you will need to supplement on Vitamin B-12, and vitamin D.

However, that diet is also very expensive, so it's a trade-off.

I eat more grains, because they are reasonably healthy, and much more dense and cheaper than veggies. With veggies, you have to eat many kilograms of them. Some people can't keep up with the larger volume required, or the cost.

I'd be glad to help you with whichever way you want to go -- with or without grains.
What's your daily food budget?

[Joel.LM]

Hi Joel,

Why don't you find any moral trouble with harming animals? I think most people do, even if they eat them due to a perception of necessity.
Is this a feeling that is lingering from Catholic tradition that animals don't have souls/are unfeeling machines, or something else?
I'm surprised to hear that you studied philosophy, so I'm wondering if you've thought about it.

Thank you for your reply.


The part I highlighted are False. I do not take pleasure in harming animals of any kind nor do I attribute my current opinion to religion. I have for the most part completely disassociated my self with Catholicism. I attribute my attitude with my upbringing. I grew up In a mining, hunting, and trapping town in the middle of no where near the 60th parallel. Due to our location, food was expensive and a 5hr drive to the nearest grocery store. During the winter months it wasn't uncommon for the road to town to be closed for extended periods of time due to bad road conditions, weather, and temperature (when temps drop below -40, machinery doesn't like to start). We had to prepare for the winter months, we pickled, we froze, and we stored foods of all kinds, this includes meat. Meat we would hunt for, Once a year, we would get a moose and that would see us threw the winter. To purchase that amount of food at the store, the cost would have been astronomical, and completely unrealistic. I know better then most where my food comes from. I do not support commercial farming, I do not support trophy hunting, and trapping. This I feel supports pointless animal suffering and is a huge waste of resources. I do support hunting for food, and ethical farming as my inlaws practice, free rang, well cared for, and well treated. That being said, i'm sure that if more people got their hands dirty, their would be quite a few more vegetarians/ vegans because it is grisly work. Nothing pleasant about it.

I think what a lot of people forget is becoming vegan is a First world choice. It's not an option for everyone, even in Canada. You go to some of the Northern communities, becoming vegan would be far too expensive and just not possible. I'm not sure if you have ever been in a grocery store that hasn't received its shipment because the trucks or planes never made it. It's shocking to a lot of people seeing the produce section void of everything or the baking section emptied out. It's a rude awakening to some. I'm fortunate, I can make that choice, but would i shy away from eating meat or hunting, no. I still see it as a necessity in a lot of situations. It's also a bonus that meat is tasty at least to some of us. I am far more apposed to GMO and pollutants than i am against meat consumption.

I'm not a shamed to say that my motivation is purely health related and selfish. shameless i know.

You may benefit from reading Dr. Fuhrman.

I will look into his work thanks. anything in particular?

that diet is also very expensive, so it's a trade-off

What diet? gluten free?

[brimstoneSalad]

The idea of veganism is to avoid harm to animals (particularly sentient ones, which are the only ones that can be harmed) where practical and possible.

There are cases, certainly in third world countries, where people just don't have much of a choice in food. Taking medicine made from animals, or eating to survive because you can't access or afford anything else, is not against that core vegan philosophy. Your life and the lives of your loved ones come first.

Veganism, as you said, is mostly a first world choice (although there are many second and third world countries where it's also a choice, depending on where they live and the food situation there), but it's also a matter of education.

I would say everybody can be vegan, but perhaps it's not possible for everybody to avoid all animal products. A vegan who eats animal products out of necessity would still be in principle vegan -- and would stop eating them once it becomes possible/practical not to (like a change in means, or availability).

Due to our location, food was expensive and a 5hr drive to the nearest grocery store.

I would love to hear more about this.

How much were dry beans? I feel like a large part of this is an infrastructure issue, but it may also relate to food education. When people don't know how to be healthy eating plant products (and it isn't always fool proof), they may default to meat which will provide complete nutrition (but also saturated fat, cholesterol, carcinogens, etc.).

Meat is a mixed bag, since it gives you everything you need to survive at the bare minimum, but also a bunch of stuff you don't need and don't want. Plants have to be mixed and matched more, or eaten in larger bulk, to get enough nutrition, but also gives you bonuses like fiber and lack the more harmful substances that meat comes with.

Achieving that balance of optimal nutrition with plant food either requires more expense (lots of veggies), or more planning and nutrition education (beans and grains). It's information not all people are aware of.

Meat we would hunt for, Once a year, we would get a moose and that would see us threw the winter. To purchase that amount of food at the store, the cost would have been astronomical, and completely unrealistic.

There is a bit of false economy to hunted meat sometimes, but there might be some cases where people are forced to rely on that, as you said.

We have a thread discussing that a bit here:

https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... =22&t=1091

Maybe we can discuss this in that thread? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I know better then most where my food comes from. I do not support commercial farming, I do not support trophy hunting, and trapping. This I feel supports pointless animal suffering and is a huge waste of resources.

That's good to hear. So, it seems like you do have an issue with how most people in the world consume animals, and you just see exceptions. Like anything, it has to be a cost and benefit analysis, if the benefit to humans who are not well off exceeds the perceived cost in harm to animals.

I hope to convince you that the benefits to humans are 99.9% of the time not as beneficial as we think they are, and that the unseen costs are higher than most people know.

Consider, for example, increased cost in health care expense, medication, and early death (loss of productivity, inability to help with grand children), climate change, etc.
There are many hidden costs, even to hunted meat, which create the illusion that it's cheaper in the short term.

I do support hunting for food, and ethical farming as my inlaws practice, free rang, well cared for, and well treated.

If we talk about hunting for food here: https://theveganatheist.com/forum/viewt ... =22&t=1091

Maybe you could start a thread about your inlaws' farm? I'd love to hear details about their practice.

You go to some of the Northern communities, becoming vegan would be far too expensive and just not possible.

I think this is a knowledge and infrastructure problem. It is possible, and possible to do cheaply, but it requires more patience, planning, and a bit of upfront work to make the transition.

It's shocking to a lot of people seeing the produce section void of everything or the baking section emptied out.

Vegetables are the healthiest way to eat vegan, but it's also possible to eat a strictly grain/bean/seed based diet, made from mostly imperishable materials that transport and store very well. These are also much cheaper. However, it requires more knowledge of nutrition, and balancing the diet, because grains are not as nutritious as green vegetables.

I am far more apposed to GMO and pollutants than i am against meat consumption.

Why are you opposed to GMO?

Unfortunately, animal agriculture is a major source of pollution in the world. However, this doesn't apply to hunted meat, which is much more sustainable since the animals grew through foraging.

I will look into his work thanks. anything in particular?

None in particular; I would just say his general "nutritarian" philosophy of eating is the most sound of the popular mainstream voices.
He talks about maximizing the nutrition to calorie ratio, which means lots of veggies and beans.

In contrast, doctors like McDougall offer very bad nutritional advice.

that diet is also very expensive, so it's a trade-off

What diet? gluten free?

No, gluten free is cheap. A cheap gluten free diet is mainly based on oats and beans.
Fuhrman's diet advice is very expensive. Eating so many veggies costs a lot. Grains, on the other hand, tend to be cheap.


Diet of vegetables = Most healthy + expensive + Hard to maintain + Easy to get enough nutrients

Diet of grains and beans = Healthy (but less so than vegetables) + Cheap + Easier to maintain + Harder to get enough nutrients (may need some supplements)


The trouble is, the healthiest diet is more expensive and less practical. So, I would generally recommend the second to healthiest, which is cheaper and more practical to follow.

Ginny Messina and Jack Norris focus on practicality more, rather than idealism.

This is a good primer on practical plant based nutrition: http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Life-Everyt ... 0738214930

[garrethdsouza]

Hi

If you're on Facebook you can check out this group which has tonnes of recipes. It's called the vegan food enthusiast. Use the search in the group for gluten free, there are lots of recipes:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/100963363 ... =typeahead

There's also a dedicated page called the celiac vegan. https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1 ... =typeahead

Veganism is not necessarily a first world choice. In most places meat is a luxury and the poor are mostly vegetarians, only as wealth increases is there a concomitant increase in meat consumption. Veganism just requires being vegetarian minus the eggs and dairy but with b12 and vit d supplements instead so as long as one can afford the supplements which aren't too expensive one can easily be vegan. Nop doubt in some places it may be more difficult than in others but for ahuge number of people being vegan is easy and less expensive than being an omnivore.

[novocals]

so as long as one can afford the supplements which aren't too expensive one can easily be vegan.

Can a simple 'One a Day Men's' vitamin provide the necessary B-12 and Vitamin D supplement?

[brimstoneSalad]

Can a simple 'One a Day Men's' vitamin provide the necessary B-12 and Vitamin D supplement?

Probably not, or only barely. Those vitamins can be very poorly formulated.

It's best just to buy those couple specific vitamins, or a one a day formulated for vegans, which will have more B-12 in it.

[garrethdsouza]

Multi vitamins aren't going to be helpful, they'll be unnecessary for the other vitamins which your diet will anyways provide and insufficient for the ones you need (D and b12)

For vit d, buy vegan vit d3, dose is 600-1000iu/day.. You can clarify with your doc if need be. If you get ample of sunshine, you may not require this, though some still experience deficiencies despite it.

For b12 you'll need 1000mcg cyanocobalamin tablet taken twice/week. There's no option of not having it since it is also completely absent from plant based foods.

Recommendations are based on a registered dietitian: http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/dailyrecs

[novocals]

Multi vitamins aren't going to be helpful, they'll be unnecessary for the other vitamins which your diet will anyways provide and insufficient for the ones you need (D and b12)

For vit d, buy vegan vit d3, dose is 600-1000iu/day.. You can clarify with your doc if need be. If you get ample of sunshine, you may not require this, though some still experience deficiencies despite it.

For b12 you'll need 1000mcg cyanocobalamin tablet taken twice/week. There's no option of not having it since it is also completely absent from plant based foods.

Recommendations are based on a registered dietitian: http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/dailyrecs

Gary Yourofsky says he doesn't take any supplements and never has, and his lab work comes out just fine. I have read supplements are needed and that they aren't needed. What gives??